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France has seen a number of radicalized attacks in the past year, our hearts has gone out, have gone out to our French friends, especially during the Paris attacks in 2015, in November 2015, and a niece on Bastille Day of this year. Since November 2015, France has been under a state of emergency and the French society has seen a number of drastic changes. Friends is now a police state, and with that came and very extensive and intrusive surveillance framework. And if we're looking at the upcoming French presidential election in the spring of 2017 and the rising popularity of the far right, we see that there is a serious need for a debate on privacy rights, freedom of expression, and also on France's own national motto, which is the center of the French democratic values system, liberty, equality, fraternity. And what about privacy? So today we have with us achiness and Chris from LaGuardia to the Net and they will start framing the debate with their questions. And we hope that you will have a chance to add to that after the talk. Please help me welcome Agnes and Chris. Hi, everyone, thank you for coming. It's a great honor to be here. Let's start with something fun. Actually, yesterday we kind of revamped the whole talk and maybe this title could have changed it to something like this. As we were talking so much about friends, we should have called it like Privacy Baggot. So, you know, for the let's talk. So let's be honest. Let's be honest. Things are quite bad in France for freedom. They are taking a bad direction. And it's actually not easy to know exactly where the line between this is. Fine and it's really bad is living every day in France. It's difficult to say if we have already drifted too far or from what we know, people are suffering and liberties are under attack. But the very fact that we are here to talk about this is a good news. We can still talk about democracy and challenge the power. So let's do it. So back in 2012, President Hollande has been elec
ted. His program was, well, left wing. But since the arrival of Manuel Valls as a prime minister in July 2014, it illustrated a security turn for the government since that French government policies were strongly oriented towards more surveillance and more what they call security. Our goal is to invert the trend, to document what is going on so we can remember in all political world where everything is buzzing when the EU in the US election, we are even speaking about the post Truth World, where memory is documentation. They are of utmost importance, a little bit like the pigs in Orwell's Animal Farm. More and more politicians are playing with memories and changing their minds every two years. Well, it isn't new that people in positions of power are trying to rewrite history. However, it's no more and more difficult to keep track of those changes, especially when on a long term basis, information is so quickly buried and there are massive amounts of order type of information. In this talk. We are focused on French laws that have been adopted in the past three years and that are infringing fundamental rights in France. In the digital area, of course you better get gadgety fraternity, but also privacy, which is not in the national model, but it's still a fundamental rights under mind. So there are too many laws that are legally causing all liberty to decrease at an alarming rate. Most of them have a strong impact on Internet use, whether it's metadata gathering, surveillance or censorship. We can easily say that France is up to date to the most techniques of policing the Internet. Instead of doing a review of each law specifically that was adopted in the last three years. I would like to focus on the consequences of this close as France as France adopted very strong security measures even before 2015 and the terror attacks. So, first of all, a problem on data retention and access. Low since, well, law enforcement and administrative authority can have now a wider acces
s to metadata returned by hosting providers and ISP for broad purposes, such as a defense of permission and for the defense and the permission of the fundamental fundamental interests of France. So here we are before well before the adoption of the surveillance law in 2015, there were only few administration that had access to intelligence techniques. This is the surveillance law results and this slide which shows or the administration services that have access to intelligence techniques, which is lots of them, this and this slide is not up to date because since it has been done, a new administration that such as a penitentiary, authorities have also access to those type of techniques. Basically, those are the techniques that are allowed in that Aldo's administration to have access to. So it's not very easy to read because it's a very, very big image. You can find it on our wiki of credits at the end of this presentation, Yuusuke, you'll find a link. So basically you have here the minister of defense with all the administration around, the minister of interior around here and around here, the minister of finance and now the Ministry of Justice with the penitentiary. Authorities have also access to that type of technique. So what technique are we talking about those techniques? Well, they are what they were calling are legal that are not illegal because there is no law to prohibit them. But they were used without any legal safeguards. They intrude privacy. And, um, although there is oversight agency having to check on how those techniques are being used and implemented, it has no real power to forbid the use of one of those techniques. Those tools gather well, analysis of encrypted communications, key loggers, Internet probes into the backbone of the network, AMC Cultures and so on and so on. Well, there is also very weak and complicated judicial redress to be put forth to protect citizens of that. As a matter of fact, all secret surveillance is difficult to prove an
d to attack then it's public knowledge, although that several years from several years the French secret services were carrying surveillance on the international submarine cables, illegal surveillance with no public debate and no law. That's why it was illegal, even though we had sufficient evidence that this system existed since 2008. The lawsuit brought to the council, Ed, the Supreme Administrative Court was dismissed with no scrutiny. And of course, now international communications are intercepted, but now with the law, but still with no judicial redress and no real oversight. And here, for example, the MEPs of what a court case before the concert at the Administrative Supreme Administrative Court. And this court case was also dismissed. Basically, the same written that she asked and she treated my Assyrians, France. I request control procedure for the National Commission for the Control of Intelligence Technique, which the name in French is the sea and city are the commission that in that control the technique, the whole cinema was treated on fourth May 2016. Next consequences will censorship with the terrorism law of 2014 France. It will reinforce the offense of apology of terrorism, which is the glorification of Terrorism Act and terrorism speech. This offense is even more sanctioned if committed online. Yeah, and here you have the United Nations report on the use of the Internet for terrorism purposes. And it's written that it's specific but specific on an apology of terrorism, which says that some intergovernmental and human rights mechanism I've expressed that the concept of glorification of terrorism is sufficiently narrow and precise to serve as a basis for criminal sanctions, compliant with the requirements of the principle of legality and the permissible limitations of the right to freedom of expression. So this is important because this means that France, France does not comply with that. Ocean and consider that anything in the scope of apology of ter
rorism is illegal. Illegal and of course, with no definition really finished off, what is apology of terrorism? The problem is it's not only in France because the EU directive for combating terrorism, which is going to be adopted very soon at the EU level, is going in the exact same way. And and then it will be applied in all the countries. So still, without definition of what is apology of terrorism, we shall not forget that a key difficulty is to identify where the line of acceptability lies because it varies greatly from country to country, depending on cultural and legal history. So apology of terrorism won't be this won't be exactly the same in one country and in another one. So and still no definition in none of the countries. Speaking of numbers, as we are geeks and we like numbers, between 1984 and 2014, there have been 14 people sentenced for with the offense of apology of terrorism in 2015. So in one year there has been 336 people sentence with that offense, considering then one third of the people that have been sentenced. I've been sentenced on the sole offense of apology of terrorism. That means that people are getting sentence of a very serious sanctions for merely going on a website or posting a statement on a social network. Now, let's talk about police powers. So since November 2015 and the terrorist attacks in France, France in is in under a state of emergency, which is still ongoing. So this state of emergency has been extended already five times and it will last until July 2017. So it will be almost two years and we don't know if it won't be extended again. It could be, at least for the moment. It's the state of emergency is an exceptional set of power that was installed in France for the war in Algeria. It gives exceptional powers to the minister of interior and the minister of defense and as it was shaped as a regime for war situations. Now it looks like it's getting less of exceptional, but there is more. This means that we are going to have t
o elect our next president in France under an exceptional state of power. It means that emergency is going is becoming the current state of affairs. It's not a bug. It's a future. So next, consequences searches. This is part of the police powers, but it has very interesting things. After the declaration of state of emergency in November 2015, the police carried a very large number of house searches at any time of the day and any time of the night. And also, considering that it was those searches were done at the police discretion without any control in how the search was carried. Speaking of numbers, after three months, there has been around three thousand three hundred and thirty six searches. The searches were not only on the things in the police, but as well on the content of the computers or the type of system. There has been various version of the law that allows those type of searches. The first law adopted in November allowed the police to to grab any type of data on your computer and any type of system connected to that computer that in that could be a remote system, considering it could be your cloud storage, your remote servers or. Well, the whole Internet after that, the the Constitutional Council, which is censored part of the law and well put some kind of Surgut. But again, when the law was put back in after the attack in Neith on best day this day, the extent and the scope of gathering the data on the computer was once again broadened. And that allowed to, for example, take it, keep and to retain any type of data that is considered as suspicious. But wasn't it wasn't linked to any type of offense. And that has been censored again by the council end the past month. Yeah. So, uh, next, talk about the House arrests and limitation of demonstrations as well. So along with house searches, many people were under house arrest. This measure was largely used during the COP 21, which was the conference on climate change that was held in Paris in December 2015 to
forbid the organization of demonstrations. So protesters were receiving notice that they were not allowed to be present in certain areas of Paris during a certain time. And some of them received three months or more house arrest, basically. Yeah, basically what a house arrest is, is that you have to be at your place during or at your home during almost all the day because you have to go to the police station three times a day to say that you're here. So, for example, you have to go on nine o'clock, one PM and 6:00 PM so you can a very good walk. You cannot go anywhere. You have to stay in the same area. And then on the top of that, there are a lot of people from the Muslim community that have been targeted by the police. And I haven't seen the house brutally search along with a notice of three or more months without any proven or non offenses on the sole fact that there were Muslim and they might have been maybe in contact potentially with someone that has been in contact, that someone has been in contact, that someone has been in contact with something. Yeah, and on the top of all those measures that are barely legitimate, France requested derogations from the European Court of Human Rights. It means that France deliberately asked the permission to infringe human rights. The Article 15 allows for country to ask for that kind of permission in case of war or great danger for the nation. But what we thought is that we have seen during the the COP 21 and the heavy repression of some of the protest against the labor bill in spring 2006 in the state of emergency. And the limitation and the derogations are not only used for anti-terrorism purposes and not only for great danger for the nation's French Fifth Republic, it's often called a presidential republic. This tendency is only confirmed by the adoption of the recent laws led to a real shift, strengthening the executive power at the expense of the legislative and judicial authority. Let's remember that the separation of
powers is a key principle for a democracy, as none of the part of the poor are perfect and an all need to be balance by each other, which is written in the declaration of human and civic pride since 1789. A society in which the observance of the law is not assured nor the separation of powers defined has no constitution at all. So maybe we could say or ask whether France as a constitutional at all competition. Yeah, that was a slide from the previous version of this presentation and the catalog of all the laws we've been telling you about so far. It goes from 2013. We decided to start on 2013 because otherwise it would have been a six hour presentation. But from the military planning law to the terror of the law surveillance law, you have been heard about those low in the prior in the Treaty to See treaty have been a presentation on those laws and after the extension of the state of emergency and the reform of the penal law that that includes now in the common law measure from the state of emergency, there's laws are only those who are related in a way or another to the digital issue. So there are some others on immigration, on several things on the phone. At some point we were wondering if they were all trying to put terrorism in a law so they could go further. For example, I remember a law that was called a law on transportation, public transport and terrorism. So I had someone we all like, hey, do you want a sandwich? Yeah, I would like him. Cheese and terrorism. So let's talk about privacy now. Are you kidding? Have you thought of terrorist? This is a great illustration. Yeah. So why privacy? Because it's increasingly something attacked in all laws, as in France, in France, as something to limit or bypass in order to fight against terrorism, more especially to protect people from themselves or from the others, but normal people. So, yeah, but as soon as you weaken fundamental rights, you have lost my name. As soon as you weaken fundamental rights, we we can all
order rights. The state of emergency regime is a perfect example of how the weakening of our rights and our liberties affect our societies. But privacy is a condition for us to exist and to think and to be ourselves how to be free. If you don't know whether you thought our kind by public or private actors, the Panopticon site is being installed in a very insidious way, a sense of self-censorship is going along with it. But there is more in a society where Panopticon is the norm, the only way to exert our liberties and to have some privacy and encryption, as you know, encryption is one of the key battle for the next two years. And unfortunately, our politicians have not up to the issue and are trying to weaken or harm encryption, especially between friends with Paul in that time. And so up trust work for what we want and what we believe in. So, no, explain the situation. Let's go to what we can do. So I really like this this quotation that says A be the change you want to see in the war against al Qaeda in the quadrature tries to do this in a very different way. First of all, there is one of the big works is advocacy. We did a lot of advocacy work on all those little mentioned before, but as friends, since while the few month I started an electoral electoral year and as we know that politics are more communication than actual work, especially when an election is coming, it becomes almost impossible to follow in to explain the disaster to the member of parliament or to the government that just reply they have the responsibility to fight terrorism and so on and so on. And there is, of course, no other way to do this. When advocates it's not efficient anymore. We try to switch our strategy and, for example, document the future for the future. So, for example, this is in French, but this is one of the document we write to try to explain how the whole system of security is going on. It's called the Boulevard of the End of Liberties. We like very dramatic titles are we ar
e French. It goes from 2004 14 to 2016. Basically, it's everything you've seen until the penal law reform. You can find it on our wiki. If you were interesting to translate this to us, that would be a fine idea. And furthermore, after that, in May 2016, we really switch strategies. We decided to leave the state of emergency. Explain, for example, why we understood that the fact that politicians were going on for communication and maybe to be elected, it was very hard to try to for them to listen to us. So right now, what we're liquidating is working, mostly working on a positive proposal and to increase or work towards the general public in order to to understand the major issues. Basically, we just took a tactical step back so we can go again more in the future. Please read the whole press release. The euro is here. Well, that's only for France. We keep working at the European level on the same thing. And for example, also but we don't disappear from the political landscape as we join other likeminded NGO to create a common platform to promote our proposals during the general election debate. But we don't really aiming them any type of candidate. We're just saying that's the world we want. So to hack our way around the limit of advocacy, for two years, we've been filing court case against those close. This is a joint effort with made with two other NGOs, the two of them are the DNA evidence. So of FBN is a nonprofit. The first one is a nonprofit ISP, the France Funds Holders Internet access provider since 1992. And FDN is a federation of nonprofit ISP. So gathering around 30 user ported non-profits, Internet access providers, including Abberton. And there is also one in Belgium, for example, not only in France. So this is the nickname of the group is the exegete amateur. So with a great translation in English, um, it's a group of volunteering lawyers and gigs in France using the system to fight the system and sometimes to lose against the system. And we try to win
also sometimes. So the red team is actually an informal and self organized working group. So no, not a really NGO registered in France. They started the first lawsuits in early 2015 on data retention and then on state sponsorship and surveillance. And for two years they've launched twenty procedures, which is huge now, knowing that they're all volunteers. I mean, they all are working their normal work during the day and they're working for the kids during the evening, the night that we can then sometimes during that time probably as well. But don't tell that to their employer. Yeah. Uh, we will I will give a quick overview of of of their child, but I will try to make it simple because I'm not going to detail twenty procedures which are not possible. And if you're interested in it and there will be a central organization, but we will give the information at 4:00 p.m. today with some of the exegete to talk about our litigation case, give more information and also to coordinate litigation teams in Europe if some of you are involved in such groups, because this is quite important and we've already tried to start it, but we feel that it would be great to to go more into it. So first, on data retention and access, the French military planning, a law that was adopted in December 2013, extended the way for the administrative bodies to get access to metadata, uh, written by hosting providers and ISP within a large and imprecise in precise scope for the defense and promotion of national interests, which is so very broad. In fact, we started to court cases for this one, one more focused on data retention and that access in the framework of this specific military planning law and one another on the whole existing framework for data retention. And one of our main argument were that in 2014, the European Court of Justice had overturned the EU data retention provisions adopted in 2016. So one year, 10 years ago in a ruling called Digital Rights Ireland. So maybe some of you alread
y heard about it. For the first court case focused on military planning, a law was rejected by the Court of states of up by the conceded that the Supreme Administrative Court. We had asked for a preliminary ruling to say that the preliminary ruling is a question asked by a national judge to the European Court of Justice for interpreting for well, we ask them to interpret the European those regulations, the European ruling, and it enables a more a better harmonized implementation of the regulation, the European regulation in all the member states. Unfortunately, the court say that our court did not even explain why they did not ask for the question, but they didn't ask for the question. And fortunately, the good news is that although national courts such as the Swedish one and the British one. Are making it better than French ones, and I've had asked exactly the same question to the European Court of Justice and that our attention and the European Court of Justice replied last week on 21st of December, I think it would last week or the week before that a general and indiscriminate data retention of thought this year ago, both of all traffic and location data of all subscribers and registered users relating to all the means of electronic communication was not compatible with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. So that was what we were saying and that was what the can say that I said you're wrong or and we didn't. We want to explain to you why you're wrong or we will explain you badly. So this ruling is a very good news for us. We were kicked out by the competitor and the European Court of Justice just said we were right. Now, we hope that they can say that they will take it into account for our second court case, the one of the four, the more general framework of data retention in France. So we are impatient to know to see what will come out from this decision as the stakes are very high. Um, next part. Yeah, next part on civilians slow. So it started a long time ag
o when probably some of you weren't born yet. Well, yeah. In 1991, after a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that France was violating privacy rights. The French government enacted so on already on 1991, France was doing things for infringing human rights. So it's probably not very new. But so French government enacted a law on surveillance to enable public authority to use surveillance techniques and control radio communication without any oversight of any independent entity for the defense of national interests. National interests are always the most important. So we can do whatever we want and use whatever technique to control and to monitor radio communications. So we challenge these provisions before the constitutional, the coup, the constitutional, which is the constitutional court, and succeeded in October, striking down the legal regime for the surveillance of radio transmissions. So now they cannot do like they look like before and and make surveillance of radio transmission without any oversight, which was what they did before. Unfortunately, that's not all on surveillance. So we saw earlier that since the adoption of the surveillance law in July 2015, the tools for intelligence services and other public bodies have been developed. So the scope broadened the oversight not strong enough, but at the same time the judicial remedy has not been enhanced. And we have challenged all the implementing decrees, five of them, and we are still ongoing proceeding against the French government and the conceded that. So it's still ongoing. We're still waiting for the, uh. I mean, no, we just you know, we we sent information to the court and the government replied and then we can reply and so and so on until there is a decision. So it's still ongoing. So. And on censorship, which is the third big focus of the excisions. So the terrorism law adopted in 2014 enables administrative body to block websites without prior judicial oversight, without prior judicial red
ress and without further inefficiency. So real censorship. So France, France got rid of him is even worse than Russia's website working legislation because in Russia, the blacklist is actually subject to public scrutiny. In France, the list is updated in secret by the French police, and we cannot access it. Apparently the only country in Europe doing as bad as France is Turkey. So nice. Furthermore, when apage sensate. Users that try to reach the page are automatically redirected, the minister of interior webpage, website. And when we challenged this, they can say that dismissed our argument, saying it was OK because there were there was no processing of personal data, such as IP addresses, for example. Yeah, yeah, sure. Guess what happened a few weeks ago around our historical telecom operator made a big mistake and locked IP addresses of Google, Wikipedia and other websites. So big deals already for all those who are using or rent the tennis. And all the people were redirected to the Ministry of Intelligence and had a page. Well, the page fold down at the end that they had appeared at the beginning saying that they had tried to reach terrorist websites. So Google now Google had become a terrorist website by a human mistake, which is quite interesting. And the ministry has just announced that the collect that data collected because of this mistake wouldn't not be processed. But he had said before that none or the that I had said before, that none of the data were processed. So what it seem that he's changed his mind between before the orange failed and after the one the orange fell. So, no, we are getting back to the that with new evidence again, so that with with the exegete and well, there will be more information and possible possibility to talk with them and with us to be alarmed. It's on the fourth floor in front of all one hour. So it's like the place like huge glasses and it's like very beautiful. I think this where you have the mannequins, maybe it's in at
4:00 p.m. at 4:00 p.m. today to fourth floor to talk with the exhibits. So there is a sign that those are all legal challenges and legal work we're doing, which is in fact very, very interesting, because sometimes when you have a huge website blocked, you have new information. One of the other means of Laquidara is to work with people and to help them to understand and reappropriate themself the issues and or fight. The idea is so people can not only be part of it, but to make their fight their own. So we can decentralize. We can. We can we are not the provider of how it should be. We have, as you know, every C.C.C., we talk about our tools and we have a lot of ongoing working tools. And most of them are working and most of them are really awesome. So McPaul, which is a tool that allows us to track the position of a representative of our time on a subject so vertically. So you will be able to know if your representative what what he voted before and after this and that and that. And you see foreign policy changes his mind a lot are not, for example, were for example, we on our instance of memorable because memorable can be decentralized and you can install your own instance, which is great. We have people that voted for ACTA back in the days and they voted for the surveillance law in France when they come back from the European administration to different administration. So they have such a bad score, it's almost impossible, you know, that this guy is such a bad dude. It was possible. Well, there is this is a tool that is on free and open source software. It's on our market. So please check it up if you're if you're a developer or if you like doing that at work and so on, it's really, really interesting. The next tool that we are using is the phone. We use it to contact Frehley or representative. The idea is that people, when they're on an ongoing European campaign, for example, for the European Parliament, how they're going to be able to contact the representative
because, well, you know, phone charges. And when you have to do international phone, it's even more while everyone should be able to participate in the public debate, that's what that means, that you shouldn't be worried about how much it cost you. So we build a tool that to be paid freely to connect to your contact your representative freely. It's a free like it's really free as in free beer and free as in freedom. As you know, there is also a little lab. Please take a look at this. It's it's fun. The other one that's a documentation of what we were talking a lot about documentation before. And our wiki is used to document all the work, all our analyzes. And it was very, very heavily used to prepare this conference because trying to find backing to months and months of press release is more complicated. But when you have a wiki with all the information really well structured, it's important also to note that during the first week of the state of emergency that there is not on the slide because I just thought about this. But people started to make a list of all the violation of rights during the house searches and they're under house arrest and or a wiki page. When you go on the first page, you can find it very quickly. There is a list of all press articles speaking about a violation during the first weeks and first month of the state of emergency. This list is huge just for that. Wikis are important people. Then you have respect, Meynet. I don't know if some people were on to talk in your hold to on day one. We're thinking about speaking about net neutrality and basically respect my net. That also has a website to respect my net. That EU is a tool that allows to spot the violation of net neutrality are really go back to that conference and you have question as they come talk to me. And there are other things that are more part of the new strategy of that quadrature. Crypto parties and the network of supporters, while crypto parties, you've been to some of them, you
know what it is, and it's still really important. It's still relevant. Maybe the way that we were doing them is good. Maybe we have to change the way we're doing them. Nonetheless, sharing our experiences, sharing our knowledge, sharing our best practices, sharing our error is making us a better a better community is making me better tools. So we have to keep doing that. We are working with people trying to go back in new ideas and doing crypto parties and so on. More than just the usual crypto party think saying people are more to that. There's been a lot of talk about encryption and security out here at the CCC and your privacy issue as well. And I'm sure in the future one. So really, people talk to each other. And finally, the network of supporters with which is the core thing of what we can do, the network of supporters, like any type of NGO, is the people that can make a living it, that without the support of quadrature will be nothing will just be people in office working something. But when people speak about it, when people contact with it, we have we have the ability to decentralize a work and decentralize our communication. That makes us more resilient, because if something falls there, well, the rest can work. That's the basis of the Internet, decentralized everything. So that's it. We know we can do it and we know we are already doing it. So let's keep doing this. Let's go back to our conclusion. I'm not here to tell you what to do. We are just presenting what you are doing here in front. But what is going on in your countries? You're all from different countries, from the European Union and even overseas. So what laws are adopted in your country? Why? What type of legislation is regulating surveillance? And what, for example, are you doing about that? What about doing all the litigation work? Let's join a huge European litigation work and let's hack again the system because advocacy worked. Maybe we'll have to think about new ways to make a right and t
o speak about the rights in the next years. So fingers of what? What are you doing? And we are really interesting in knowing what we're doing. Let's get together decentralized thing. Let's make all the types of litigation work. Other types of crypto parties are the type of tools that allow us to communicate, allow us to make a right important and to connect and to participate in the public debate because, well, democracy is alive because of the people. The people are not allowed. There is no democracy. So that's that's. You have the credits for almost everything I've put in there in the slides and the extra judicial access to metadata, its techniques, so you have this on the rekey, the United Nations report on the use of Internet for Tim's purposes, the icon there is twice the same file that there's a big shout out to Tom Gate who made the file with the whole techniques and all administration. That was a huge work. Thank you very much to that. You have to visit the database on the forensic cowritten, all done by our graphic designer Gondar and the Privacy Commission on that page. There is a lot of coming up with privacy. Some of them are really, really funny. Go over there. Finally, if you have questions and contact us website, we are on an ongoing fundraising campaign as every year we are around 70 percent of our budget. If you're interested in, please support us and thank you. And if you have questions we want to let. If you have questions for Agnes and Chris, there are four microphones on the sides, please come to the microphone. We don't have so much time. So let's start right away with the microphone on this side piece. I have a general question about the French situation as far as terrorism is concerned. Is there any debate whatsoever in France that that perhaps may have something to do with French colonialism in the past centuries? No. No is on colonialism, it's it's well, I remember in the in the November 20th of last year, in November, French French Prime M
inister Manuel Valls said something very strong and that's really illustrated how French power we're seeing terrorism, at least at that time, it was explaining, is already trying to forget for four forgive. Yes, that's a word. So explaining is trying to forgive. What does that mean about the understanding of such a complicated issue as what Europe is going through right now? So I guess the debate will happen in the next year. There are people working on the antiracism front, big shout out to them, but so far in the big parliaments and so on, this debate is not really heard as French politicians are very much on the historical reaction to to terrorism. Like, this is crazy. You have to do something or our values, our life model lifestyle, everything is attacked. So so far, the debates were not really one sided. OK, then he in the front, please. Yeah, I have a question regarding the house rates you are talking about that were, yeah. Rising especially within the Muslim community. And I think in Germany, too, there are lots of people who are referred to as suspects, although there is no reason and there are. So they surveyed also. And I wanted to know if there is anything on a policy level or maybe from the civil society initiatives or organizations working against that. Well, not so far. The thing is that there have been few court fines and court cases under house arrest. The what is interesting that they really rushed everything after the attacks of November. And so things are getting settled and first things are getting judge. And for example, there are people that are still under house arrest since November last week, this year. So this is like we don't know whether I guess in the future something will come up. But so far, the civil society working that this is an amnesty and the league, the dalam human human rights would like, you know, not criminal throughout, but the Human Rights League or OK, are working on that and get in. Then we have a question from the Intern
et. Yes, the IRS is asking basically two questions. First of all, Ecco, 21 asks, you mentioned about 3000 searches since the state of emergency was enacted. Do you know how many convictions for crimes these have resulted in? Yes, but I didn't I forgot to put the numbers. Let me let me try to find out if you have my Great Wall paper here. I hope this OK was here. Great. I know I found the and those numbers are from the report on the first month. It's not since last year. That's a first month of state of emergency. And that the report was issued on the third month. Uh, what is this. Yep. So there was the French newspaper. Le Monde has a section called The Decoders, and they're try doing data on the numbers and so on. So basically, it's very small, but you have four hundred. That was after three months, I think if I remember well, that was after on the report that our four hundred house arrest there are two hundred and ninety still active. There has been three judicial procedure with 28 on terrorism, 23 for apology of terrorism. I well eight being linked to terrorism and five real for terrorism. So that's very small. And there we know that the next number I'm just reading that for the information that twenty, thirty eight individuals that have been followed by the French Secret Services DGSE, which is the interior services and among which 320 have been already contacted. So this has been done in January 2016. So it was a year ago, three months after the start of the government. And those numbers are outdated. Yeah, we have no idea what the new one. Thank you for that. And the second question is by Trussville. He basically asks in your eyes, how big is the impact of the extra Amadu on the situation in France? Is it more than a voice to articulate disagreement with the status quo? I think it's from Internet, so I guess it's not this person is not here right now, otherwise I would have I would tell him to go ask them. Nonetheless, I think we are creating a lot of jurispru
dence that could be used from other countries in Europe or in the world or in France for that kind of issue. Yeah, I think the influence well, the the impact of the exegete is increasing time after time. I mean, like and. I mean, now people are contacting us on Twitter to ask us to challenge a new law or change anything that that are coming, and that is not great. So, I mean, I think that there is something that is, you know. Oh, yeah, I've been on going since two years only. So that's very, very young. OK, then the microphone in the back there, please. Hi, I. Could you talk a little bit more about the role litigation has had in activism and creating political change, especially if you have any examples about your experience with it? You mean, yeah, the impact of litigation in activism, I think it's very important just because right now we feel that advocacy in France at least advocacy is not enough to change things. So you fight as you can against, for example, for surveillance law in 2015. We fought a lot. We were like that. I was at the top of the leader in the fighting against this law. And finally we we lost because it was adopted. And even on that, we can create a huge coalition of where you would create a huge coalition with private sector private companies, start ups also with NGO friendly for human rights and other type of ofri in general, civil rights. The coalition was huge. Also individuals. I mean, there have been lawyers, very known and top lawyers to try standing against that. And the government was deaf to that. So maybe if it's not working, let's back away from that. Yeah. And then it's important to us to have other solutions afterwards to fight against. And it enables all the people to participate because some of the people would not be able or would not like to do some advocacy, but can help to do some litigation. It enables also to collaborate, cooperate with other NGOs doing the same thing on litigation or the in other countries and to create. N
uh nuh nuh nuh nuh. Yeah. New networks. Um, so it's, I think it's, it's complementary and it's very important to keep going with it because and and it's also when you cannot find a way to um for example for that are retention. There is there was no way for us to win at work to to make it fall down on the French level, either by advocacy or by French challengers or court cases. And it's at the European Union level that we can finally succeed. So it's very important to I mean, to try everything. Yeah. To try all the tool we have to to succeed to it. Yeah. OK, thank you. Then up here in the front, please. In my opinion, calling the state of emergency is a slight overreaction on the topic, but what is the public opinion in France on this? All the people seem viewing that a state of emergency being called right now and extended every year. And then, first of all, a state of emergency is not a name of us. That's the name of the actual state. It's called the journalists from Allo from the in 1955 on the public opinion. It has been changing a lot. I think considering public opinion. It's really complicated as public opinion. It depends where you pick it. Do it from your friends. Do you pick it from a study? Do you pick it from general? What media are saying? So what happens is that also they see the relation with the general reaction. And I think it's if you can link it with the CHOUX tragedy, defining them is Cranebrook. So after the attacks, of course, everyone was saying we want more security, but we can see that even as France adopted an anti-terrorism law every year for the past twenty years, twenty five years, we have still this problem. And there is something that politicians try to advocate that they will fix things. However, we know as we are geeks, hackers and so on, that perfect security is impossible. So on the public opinion, I think there is we are living a a turmoil. On one side, you have the rise of populist leaders such as a Marine Le Pen. On the other side
, you have the left wing parties going for security and the politics are played by Manuel Valls. Wasn't a political left wing politics such a strong right wing politics that could have been done by any kind of hard core Republican? So I think we are in a time of a change and we have to decide what do we believe in? What what do we want and what do we want to do that will? And I would just add something, which is even people get used to the state of emergency, gets used to be search the bags at each time you go in a shop, get used to, you know, having to show your bags to take the train or anything like this and to have less freedoms on the Internet or less freedoms anyhow. I mean, they're getting used to be in a more well to lose their freedom, you know, and and this is absolutely not what we want. So we try to oppose this. That's it. Then the Internet again, please. We had a huge feedback on Twitter, and, of course, many people are asking, is this a blueprint for other countries as well? But Pourri Keyon in Ayers's especially asking what is the current state of affairs in Belgium? Oh, do you know something about that? The innovation has have adopted few security laws for having been in mean. I've not have such in-depth knowledge about the legislation on that. Nonetheless, I think Belgium is less trama drama queen about that. I'd said I'd like this. They have been in Brazil just after the attacks in Brussels and the reaction between Paris and Brussels was very, very different from the other type of issue. For example, also that they have this far right wing political party, racist political party out of power. So that's another type of problem. So I would say go ask Naropa, which is the natural rights protection organization in Belgium. So maybe go ask them. They may know more than me. Thanks. And then over here, please, if I may refer back to Belgium because I live in Brussels, I have seen the situation. I think it's good because the government are already chaotic
enough. So they cannot really take a stance on this. And the only comment they made so far was blaming PlayStation four encryption and communication among terrorists. That was the minister of interior company. Bullshit. But coming back to France, what's the do you have any allies among public figures or any political parties? Maybe not parties, but politicians who voice your concerns and your calls? What's the state of the public debate? And do you foresee that after the elections in case for national wins? Can it go anywhere? I'm not asking that question. I will not answer that question and can get anywhere that I mean, the second part on the first part, we have politicians that are there that are supporting us a little bit. Yeah, or a lot. But few of them I mean, especially the member of parliament. Well, we know we have a socialist government. You know, the government is socialist one, but it's an extreme right one as well. So depending on the official name or the right situation. So among the socialists on the left wings, we have support in the green side or depending on we have a little bit. But among the member of parliament, I mean, it's very few of them, and especially on terrorism issue, if they're told each time they have to add something that they would be responsible if they do not for the law. So they do not want to be responsible of the next attack. So that's what the law. So, I mean, the support is not so strong and the government is using a very that's very part of the new prime minister of France, Bernard Cazeneuve, that has a very way of saying, telling people that they should vote what he's giving, that if you don't vote first, you are against France, you're against French values, and you will be responsible for the next attack. So as a politician, what does that mean when you have your job, your job is being that is chosen by the people and you have to and after you are scared that people are going to tell you that's your fault, so you kind of vo
te the same way. He says, OK, we have time for one more brief question that goes to you. So the EU seems to be helping you guys a bit. I mean, you're saying, you know, you go over the French courts and to the EU court and it's nice that the EU is at least something of a force for good. But how long will that last? I mean, there are a lot of other countries that are pushing the EU in a, well, fascist direction, to put it that way. I mean, how long will this be helpful? Um, it depends. For example, what we talked about, the EU Court of Justice that helps us for better retention, for example. It's not always the case. For example, the terrorism, the directive on combating terrorism that is currently negotiated at the EU level and will be adopted by the EU parliament in January or the beginning of February, probably is not very good. And lots of French measures for terrorism law are put into this directive. So you is not always helping us, but it's interesting for us to work with the EU because you go out from your French French very close, you know, mind, you know, from the government and members of parliament. So right now, this is not always the EU that helps help us, but not all the part of the EU, but especially the court. And honestly, we do not know how long it would last and we hope it could help us to keep going this way. But, you know, otherwise, if people have questions, come see us at the teahouse afterwards. And for the talk of the exegete at four p.m.. What time is that again? Four PM at four pm and 4th floor, four PM, 4th floor right in front of you. So make sure everyone.
