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31c3-talk-6142 Latest text of pad 31c3-talk-6142 Saved Jan 13, 2021 |
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OK. Hello, everyone, I'm Robert, does this cousin. And yeah, today we want to talk about hacking space and yeah, so that our agenda I don't know if you can call it an agenda or table of contents, so to say. I want to talk about sweepings. So actually who's Pete's PDA stands for part time scientist. That would be us, our team. What happened so far? So what have we done? Not just what have we done it all, but what have we done, especially in the last four years and in the last year? That's something that we want to do. Very briefly, the introduction and what happened. And then that's the most important thing for today, how you can be a space hacker. OK, so let's have a look at the part time scientist, so we're the part time scientist, a team of scientists and engineers building space hardware. So what does this mean? This means that we take every day and technology. So that stuff that maybe you can even buy at your local electronics store and some stuff that you probably will never buy at your local electronics store like FPGA. But are still out there and it can still get your hands on. And we try to modify them and get them workable or get them working in space environments. So why are we doing this? Our goal is to lower the entry barrier to space with technology. This means that in space exploration, you have to deal with a whole lot of extremes. You have environmental issues. You have temperature shifts, especially on the moon of over 250 degrees in Celsius. You have radiation environments, which is over 100 times the amount of radiation that you have here on Earth. And you have a whole lot of other issues, I don't know, like crashing into planets and stuff. So you need to build hardware which can withstand this environment and we can actually do something. Also, you have some limitations, have got resources. And we think that if we have the right kind of technology which can do the job better than existing technology, then you can make things easier. You can actua
lly get some advancements in space which are just solely due to the technology. And yet also, just in the meantime, by the end of next year, we hope that we've developed everything to personally send a rover to the moon. That's our goal. And that's what we try to do as a part time scientists taking part in the Google and taxpayers competition. So, yeah, that that's our goal and that's what we're doing. So what do you need to privately get to the moon, so you need, for example, a service module that something that we've designed and you need a landing module. The service module is what you can see on the left side. That's basically the thing. It's like the upper stage of a rocket, which gets you all the way from from right from the right of orbit to the moon orbit. And then you have to landing module, which basically, as the name suggests itself, is to want this this module, which gets it down to the lunar surface safely. So that's actually the unit which has the right kind of trust us to lower you to the surface and then gets dropped and touches down. And totally, of course, for the fun part. We have a lunar rover with us that we want to take to the moon. That's the Asimov rover. That's actually an image which shows you the rover, as we thought it would look like about a little bit like 40 months ago. And we have to look inside the presentation to see how it looks like today. So, of course, the rover has its purpose. It has all kinds of scientific and nonscientific equipment that's like pretty cool HD cameras that we think are important to get onto the moon. And it has payload capacities, something that we will talk about later. So what else do you need to do something in space, you need rockets in this case, you need a really big one, because if you want to go to the moon, you need a rocket like this one. So this thing looks huge and it definitely is huge if you stand right in front of it. However, compared to the everyday rocket that you've probably heard of from
the media, like the ones that SpaceX is building the company with Elon Musk and Tesla, that's actually a smaller one, because what we need to get our mission to space is like two three point seventy five tons of mass so that the space X, the fuckin rockets for actually ten tons and more. So they are in the category of so-called heavy launches. And what we are aiming for is the category of satellite launch vehicles. The great thing about satellite launch vehicles is that they're really cheaply, cheaply available. So because they're like, I don't know, hundreds of satellites being launched all the time. And this makes it a mass market. However, it is a challenge for us to get everything that we've built to make a mission towards the moon with only this kind of mass that you have available, because they really need to fit everything that you need to fuel your structure and everything you have in this little amount of math. So that means that we have to really integrate and build stuff smaller and more lightweight than you would do with a larger rocket. OK, so that so much for pets, so the question is PED's in 2014 or what happened so far? Let's make a small step back five years ago, as of today, we actually kicked off our team and our idea right here at the CCC Congress. So it's five years now later and back then, we presented to you an idea we actually talked about. I can't imagine today if we talked about Suy hours long about concepts and idea of privately getting to space. So and we actually and the past four years, we actually tried everything we can to make these ideas come alive. And something that we're really proud of is that at the end of 2014, we were selected to be one of the teams being awarded as one of the six million dollar grant prizes after Google and some prizes because a panel of independent judges that was set up by Google, which consisted of members from NASA and ESA, they've looked at all the technology that we've built in the past years. And I sa
id, hey, guys, this definitely is not space hardware. It's it's not like we would have built it. But we believe it can work in space. It can get the job done. And it was a pretty awesome thing for us. And just let me just explain what the job actually is. So, OK, OK, so the goal of the Google and X Prize is that you sent something, probably a rover to the moon and you drive around at least 500 meters and you transmit back HD video by doing so. And when you're when you have done this and then you get like 20 million bucks or the normal 25, 20 million bucks. And there are also some additional prizes so that if you're if you're able to drive like five kilometers, then you get some more money. And some if you detect water, you get some money. And if you drive to a heritage site like the Apollo site, you will get some money. And, um, yeah, in the end, you can get up to 30 million US dollars, which sounds like a lot. But unfortunately, the rocket that we showed to you, which is like one of the cheapest, that it's the cheapest, the cheapest option about. Yeah, it's the cheapest from the Russians. And so this one is like already around about 20 million U.S. dollars or even more. So you see there is there is no we will not be very rich once we have done we have sent the rover to the moon. The mission overall will be much more expensive than that. And but what the what the X Prize Foundation, which is running the Google Lunar X Prize, wanted to have to show that the teams are capable of actually fulfilling the Google Lunar X Prize in itself. And so they set out the milestone crisis, which is a competition within the Google and takes place where you have to say to show that there's hardware that you build should be able to to drive on the moon. But don't forget that we will actually have to land on the moon itself before we get the money from the Google and X Prize. So it's not like there's a competition where at the end Google is shooting up the rockets and then you will get
the money and all the rest is done in CGI. Yeah, and I think that's the main misunderstanding about the government, is that it's actually it's not about the money from Google. It's more like an as it's called an incentive. So it incentivizes you to figure out ideas to actually get your technology to the moon. And that is what we've been trying to do the past four years. So we've compiled a short video and we were debating if it's maybe too long. It's a three minute video, but I think your attention span can do it. It. All right. Don't say the nicest thing. It's a nice feeling to stay low class. Keep in mind this is scaring me. And Lawsie. You can claim to understand when the changes come, you says some extra money. Go get. OK, so what? Everything that you saw, the tests of the past year, something that I would have personally never believed about 40 months ago when we were selected for these additional devices, that we can do all this test and would actually pass all of them. There's something I would have never believed. I don't know. Put something on your own and put it on a vibration table and be sure about it. It works afterwards. There's definitely not a feeling that it will have. And that is something because I just want to Halad this thing because for me, because he managed to pass all the qualification tests that we've put him through. Asimov of our rovers, my hero of 2014. And just to highlight just very few things that I think are totally awesome about the technology that we found and work with in the past is one thing in this case, for example, is a 3D printed metal parts. I don't know of you. All of you know Tweetie printing. But one thing, that new thing that we've explored on our end was Tweedie printing, in this case aluminum and titanium parts. So we've worked with a company like Asalam Solutions who helped us, for example, to make our wheels and to camera unit as a camera focused unit solely when printed part, which gives off a whole lot of advantag
es, something that, for example, I had to understand. The good thing is that you can do the cable routings inside the parts itself. So it's actually much easier to put the cable things in there, which is something that I don't know. If we want to do it on a scenic part, then you have like 10 parts Indian and so you get just one part out of it. So that's something pretty awesome. And another thing that we were pretty happy about this year was the dampening elements of our landing module. So because, of course, after landing module, which turns off its engines above, I think tremulousness would like something like 20 meters above the ground. Then it touches down, which always sounds so softly. But I don't think falling three meters is soft. And so it has the dampening elements to take off all the load. And that's something that we've worked out in with this carbon fiber stock, together with the guys from the of space team, which are also building awesome rockets and a really cool guys. And yeah. So it's just one of the few things that we had in our development, which I think are cool. And now I want to get over to the subject. But you get involved, but I think you forgot something. OK, I want to I want to emphasize this little guy, which is our camera, and you might be wondering why does it have like three lenses? So we have we have two wide angle lenses on the on the outside and we have one lens on the inside, on the middle. And something that's special about the middle one is that it's a black and white sensor. And what you saw in the video was the color of the field of view that we are using to, uh, to capture different wavelengths. And so this is part of a of a scientific payload that we are sending to the moon. But we have a camera that can capture different wavelengths to to do analysis of of the stones, of the material that is composited that is on the surface of the moon. And the other ones are just regular BioProduction color cameras, which were used for driv
ing and recreating a 3-D scenery from wild driving around, which is helpful for navigation. Also, we put some of the electronics in an X-ray because it looks awesome. Um, yeah. So but, uh, one of the things that that we noticed when we were developing the idea on how to send our rovers to the moon is that we had to fix the solar panel somehow because it can be tilted. And one of the problems when you are sitting on a former intercontinental missiles, that the launch is quite heavy, that you have you have bad vibrations and not music, but you have vibrations. And so those get very high. And so we need to fix the solar panel. And so we put a little triangles in here. And those little triangles are very interesting because we call them Tropp container because they are during the flight. They are in there to stabilize the solar panel. But when the rover drops from the from the lander, which is like this height, it drops on the surface, then they are still in there. And so we can drive them around and eventually we can we can drop them anywhere on the surface. And so we decided that this is not just a triangle, but its scientific payload. And so we have two rovers that are attached to the bottom of the of the lending module and they drop on the surface and they can drive and they each have two truck containers and they can replace anywhere on the surface of the moon, which is pretty cool. So we can, uh, bring a total of 20 kilograms on the surface, which is not directly attached to the landing module, but, um, somewhere out there. And what this is about is that we are making the specification open so that, uh, you can actually suggest the payload for us that we want to, but we are bringing to the surface of the moon. Uh, so the specification is that this triangle almost fits a CubeSat. So the idea is that if you have any hardware that has already been proven in some, uh, in some CubeSat technology, you can just use it. And the idea is that the container sits on the rover
, falls down and then unfolds so that it sits flat on the surface and on the on the inside that unfolded, you have solar panels which give you the, uh, the energy. And we will provide you with some you add that you can use to communicate, um, with us, um, in the end. OK. OK. And so when we saw what's inside our drop containers, of course we wanted to use we have some ideas. We have actually I have like a thousand ideas of stuff that I would like to shoot to the moon and just try it out also. So and so that we actually had some good use already for our drop container. So that the point is that we thought it would be a really nice idea to offer some space to us. Well, however, let's have a quick look at what else is part of our unserviced payload, that stuff that we as want to bring in. The very first thing is a lunar regolith, rapid prototyping demonstration unit or simply a 3D printer. So what we are doing and. Where we build prototypes of is a Swedish printing unit which is capable of collecting lunar soil, refining it and printing small parts out of it, solely out of the soil without any binding material. That's a very important thing because most 3D printers work with binding material. Here's the goal to actually only use energy and lunar soil. So and this is just a demonstration of doing something simple, like like a flat gear in this case. But the point is, think about the implications if a demonstration unit like this works on the moon. As for me, this really changes everything. And we've also space exploration because the biggest challenge is actually to get stuff somewhere in space on the moon. And if it can just build it, there are large parts of it. That's a huge fan. So that's a very important thing as a payload for me. Another thing which I really love, I don't know, due to my technical background on information storage is the long time data archive and future, not mankind retrieval stuff, which basically means that we want to take a suite of D, which is
a standard industrial M.D., which is a technology originally developed by NASA for one, I think one of the Mars missions. And it's a special kind of DVD. Actually, it's like a DVD that you can burn and you can actually buy it for yourself. It's really expensive, but if you need to store something for a thousand years or more than your DVD. The point is why would what what would we do with it? Normally I was thinking about Haku. We take one of these DVDs or we take like two DVDs, burn the entire Wikipedia, Wikimedia, everything from state of the moment of the launch onto it and bring it to the moon. How awesome is this? All the knowledge of mankind preserved on the moon now thinking one step further. I was thinking about. Do you think which of which one of you in the audience thinks that we can with DVDs in 30 years from now, if there is somebody there who says I can do it, then I give you a 50 years and then I give you the question. Think about somebody totally different, maybe not from Earth. I don't know, maybe he's from Earth and doesn't know anything about us, or maybe he's from somewhere else and he's walking up to the rover and he's seeing the stuff and he's thinking like, is this art or is this trash? I don't know. What is this? You know? And that brings me up to the question. And that's something that we will also put a proposal out because we haven't found a solution yet as. How to make sure that somebody can actually read the data stored on this and that, to give you an idea of what we are thinking about, we want to bring Sweetenham this with us, Blu ray, a DVD with us to the moon and sweet metal plates. This metal plates are just very thin and it will be laser later etched schematics on both sides of this metal plate. And now the question is, what do we wide on this metal plate? What can you white on a plate on a 10 by 10 centimeter plate that actually describes how to eat the stuff, you know, not just how to use a laser to eat it, but I don't know what
is a JPEG file, you know, stuff like this. So things that you never think about. And that's that's, I think, really exciting. So if you have ideas for this, also get in touch with us, because we want to put out a request for ideas towards universities early next year on this subject because we haven't found a good solution. And it's I think it's an exciting subject. And then, of course, the usual stuff that we will take a small plague, flak, token of friendship and of course, the Google Express logo because we get magnified. So, so much for our stuff. Now back to your stuff. OK, so I already said it, but I really want you to think of something that could fit into the container and that provides an interesting experiment on the surface of the moon. And there are like three rules for it. First one, it should be open. So the idea is that whatever you do, you make all the designs available for everyone to read. And this and the data that are retrieved will also be, uh, open for everyone to read. So if you don't want to lay open your plans of your doomsday device, um, you can contact us and make a proposition that we can't decline and we will consider it seriously. We don't accept any horsehead so far. But, um, the other thing is it should be innovative. So sending your grandma Ts to the surface of the moon is not really innovative. So we want to have something that, um, that has never been done before that that shows that generates new data that is interesting and that the community might be actually really interested in. Also, it should be ready by 2016, which is like tomorrow in terms of space hardware. So, um. The deal is really that we want to we want to create a platform for sending stuff to the surface of other planets. We want that everyone can participate and interesting experiments and doesn't have to be a university. And yeah, so it should be like CubeSat is a CubeSat has become a format for for hobbyists to do satellites. And it's widely accepted as a format
and there's an ecosystem built around it. And so we want to create something like this. And also it should be as easy as taking a scatter system that's really shown today earlier. That should be pretty easy. Um. So I give you a few examples of what we have in mind when we are talking about this, what you see here on the on the right hand side is a sketch of what the Apollo astronauts, I think it was 17 or something, what they were observing during the mission. So when the when the sun was rising, they saw some some twilight rays and they had no idea where it was coming from. Because if you think about Earth, you like. Oh, yeah, it's coming from the clouds, but oh well, there is no atmosphere there or there isn't exosphere. It's very thin atmosphere. And so they were like baffled. What what could this be? And there are some good theories about it that it could be related to some charges that, uh, some particles are positively charged, charged and others are negative. And so they are, um, they're both positively, um, and then they are floating, floating around on, uh, above the ground. And this is something that, for example, the LADEE, NASA mission to try to to explore and, uh, and so collected some data about it. But, uh, on the on the surface itself, it would be so much more interesting to measure the size, the direction and the speed of the particles, uh, to understand this problem, because it is a real problem for for later missions. If you are on the, uh, on the moon and you have a mission where the camera gets dusty and you don't know why, then because there's no wind, then this would be explored, how this happens and how you can prevent it. So this is very important for future missions. And this is really just an example. Another example is, um, you could say, OK, there are many interesting experiments that, uh, that are just taking a PCB. And if you stack them together and maybe at some spring mechanism mechanism that, you know, shoots them around something l
ike this, then this could be really interesting as well. So, you know, you can you can propose to us that you will provide us with a stack of experiments on your own. Also, we explored that you do some bumps and the seismic, but don't do that. We are using as I said, we are using a former interconnectedness. And if you put something that can possibly explode and some people get very nervous about it, um, but we are sure that the look ahead was removed before our mission. Um, so one of the most pointless things that I could think of as a cellular webcam, I mean, this picture that you can see here is was taken by Apollo 17 while they were on their way to, um, to the moon. So you could have like a simple webcam that sits on the moon, takes a picture of Earth and transmitted back to the same earth, um, that is shown in the picture. Maybe I also can add something. And you think the webcam is silly. I agree with you. It's a simple thing to do, but I think it has a very good, I don't know, social impact, if you can. I don't know. I have a website where people can actually, I don't know, take their very own personal picture of the moon or, for example, to have it in a way that you have your own image superimposed. That is something that, for example, high altitude balloon, I don't know how to call this guy. Scientists, engineers doing so. They they are launching sometimes balloons, but they have a mirror or a small LCD where they have images overlaid, I don't know, from people. And then they take an image of the earth in the background. And if you do something like this on the moon, I know I think it could be really huge in a way to to motivate people to think about space and have their very own personal image on the moon taken. And so I think a webcam could, for example, be a good thing. And things that I'm personally thinking of, I really like to fiddle with stuff like this, that Switch and Raspberry Pi, for example. And if you think, you know, you love to be of similar t
hings and you might say, I want to get this to be working on the moon, then that's also a project and that's actually an advancement. So if you figure out some way to get this guy to survive the environment of the lunar surface, which is possible, definitely that's something that we've learned across the last four years. Definitely everything is possible if you put your mind to it. So there's a whole lot of exciting things that you could do with this. And we're just giving you the opportunity. One of the other things that that comes to my mind, when we were showing you the real of all the tests we have done, then you are seeing that the results on the various tests, for example, of radiation, um, because you don't have an atmosphere, you're bombarded by all the radiation that is coming from the mostly the sun or other particles that are floating around. And we need to know what radiation we actually need to test for. And so far, there are there are some measurements done by the Apollo, but those on Apollo missions, but they are not very dense. So we want a radiation monitor would be very interesting for us because then we know what what a typical moon day looks like from the radiation perspective on the surface, which can be a bit different than then from the orbit because you have some particles that are not particles. But, um, so anyway, it would be interesting for us. Um, yeah. So if you are interested in sending something from space, know something from Earth to space with us, uh, in the top container, we will publicly release a kind of a vacuum for, uh, for everything need to know at the 15th of January. You can also bookmark this page or you can visit it now, um, where you can find some information or you can contact us in any meaningful way. Or you can specifically send to space LPT scientists dot com. And actually, a special thing is that, as I said, will be released on the 15th, but this is really a chance to be a little bit ahead of everybody else, because
what you hear in the audience are the only ones who know about this opportunity and everybody else on the Internet. The point is, actually, I think it's a good time to think about what you can actually do if you can send something to the moon. And I'm personally angry. As I said, I'm an IT guy, so I'm more fascinated with things like protocols, for example. And I know if I would like to build the lunar webcam, then I was thinking about how to get the data back and how would it like transmission wise going forward and stuff like this. So there's a whole lot of awesome. Yeah. You know, it's for you, it's just bits and electronics. So the point is, I don't think there's a whole lot of fascinating things that you can do with it and think about this opportunity. And maybe you have already built something in the past that you would love to see on the moon or working on the moon. It doesn't have to be radiation monitor because I wouldn't be able to build one. But but if you are built one, definitely. OK, um, so one of the things that we want to show you, um, uh, is a little teaser of what we have done, uh, in the very last freakier last week. Exactly. Um, I just saw in the last picture, um, in the last video, in the end we were not quite happy about the quality of, uh, of the images that were coming back from our camera. But we were driving around and so we wanted to remove all humans from Netherton, from Earth, but at least from the camera view, and wanted to create really awesome pictures. And for that, we did something pretty cool. And we have a small video about that as well. I my lines old. So that is how proper rocket science looks like when you are doing it on the river to get the highest possible quality of pictures and we were very satisfied with the results. We are so close to totally fake the mission on the lunar surface. Yeah. So, yeah, so if you have any questions for us, yeah, you can come to the microphones and ask. Yes, thank you very much. It was a very a
wesome, impressive talk. I'm really, really eager to do something. I hope I can figure out something. And I think you guys also. So please line up with the microphone, ask some tough questions, because it is really an awesome project over there. We have the IOC guy. Yes. The first question is whether there will be some legendaries, which will be Hindenburg's obstacle problems by law. Oh, for what? There are many problems by law. I mean women's access in the heritage side specifically. Maybe I can answer this. Let's let's answer that for the heritage sites and heritage site in this case means the Apollo landing site. And as we're going towards Apollo 17, there are some specific rules. And we actually I actually was the one who said it is very powerful working with NASA scientists out these rules and there are some keep out zones and stuff like simple things that make totally sense. For example, don't drive over the footsteps from Apollo astronauts. So I really don't like this, so don't do it. And other stuff. For example, if you have a landing module, don't have above the Apollo landing module. They also don't like this. You know, it's rules that make sense, that stuff that you need to keep in mind that's on the legal side. However, you have to understand one thing. There's really nobody who can enforce these rules. So it's it's it's a delicate thing with space. It's probably get to ban from traveling to the U.S. ever in your life again. So so you will be be careful. And also, of course, there's things that you definitely I don't know if a normal human being would not be putting sinfully on the moon. I don't know, like a bottle of Coca-Cola or stuff like this, because you contaminate the surface. You know, really it's stuff that, you know, that doesn't make sense. But like said, well, it depends if Coca-Cola gives you the money, then. Yes. So there's a Planetary Protection Act which requires you to clean your spacecraft so that you're not surprised by finding humans,
the earthbound life when you're going there later. Thank you. Number two, please. I have a question about your drop containers, how to get data back from them and how much power was available from the solar arrays there. I think that's I don't remember the poll exactly, but the data connection will be like like a you are not really not high Bendel's like megabits, but probably more like we're up to one megabit. I would say something like this. And the solar panel, I mean, you can you can calculate the size of it's like the size of a CubeSat. And the advantage on the moon is that you don't have the atmosphere, which really sucks most of the energy out of the of the sunlight. So even if it's even it's a small, um, solar panel, it generates surprisingly much energy also. So but you will find more information about all the detailed specs on the website that we will just linked. And also, of course, maybe but is something that we haven't decided on carrying on the integration thing. But it's actually the chance that you can have some batteries with you. But then we need to. And that is something that always works in a dialog, because if you say I want to do this awesome thing on the moon and I need like this peak of power consumption and I would like to have a better way with me, that's totally fine. But somebody needs to charge the battery. In this case, it would need to be our rover. And then we need to talk about something that's definitely doable. We just need the right kind of interfaces on our end, you know? So like the power connectors. Yeah, we want to we want to collect all the crazy ideas that you have and then you want to select a few ones that are not as crazy, that are actually possible. And we will provide you with was an outline of what steps you need to take. For example, one of the things that we did with our rover is that we tested for vibration, which is not just because it's funny to look at, but also because it needs to survive the launch of the roc
ket. And obviously you need to do those tests as well. So you need to make sure that it works with the radiation that it works with, with the vibration during the launch and that it actually works in an affirmative action. And yeah, all the integration step of all those components is really the toughest part. Uh, as David in previous talk was outlining, you know, there there are a million things that can go wrong during integration. And so we need to handle those cases properly. The good thing about the payload is just that it's not mission critical. That's the big difference. So, for example, if our rover fails the radiation test and we know that it will break down in 10 seconds after landing, then that's a problem. You know, but I don't know if you are if we see that it's may be or may not be like, say, 80 percent chance that that your experiment will die in 10 hours due to an radiation fault, which is likely, for example, if you shoot. It was very powerful that it can happen because it's not protected against it's not built for the sign of things, but it's a game of statistics. You know, it could work like one week, but it could fail in 10 minutes. Also fail are very is is a very interesting data point. You know, this is what you're always say when something fails. Oh, that's interesting. Thank you. Number one, please. Oh, thanks for the talk. And perhaps a silly question about the construction of these rovers in general. I mean, more or less, every rover I've seen uses this signal on wheels driven by a single motor. And it looks very, very fragile. Why not build it more tank like that with huge tracks and everything? Would that be too inflexible or does rubber not work in my car? I have to add one non-technical comment. Just let me do it, because the thing that I've noticed about the rover is it looks like today it's for me, it's definitely not fragile. It's like a tank. You know, it's I don't know if it falls on your foot and you definitely require I don't know
. It's really it's I don't know. It does not look like something that would break easily. But the answer to your question is rather simple. One of the things that you have on the surface of the moon is called the lunar Regulus, which is very, very, extremely fine dust. And the Apollo astronauts, when they were jumping around and having fun on the moon, they were coming back into the ship and they put off the glove and they had like fingers, which was the dust that got through their suit onto their hands. And this is actually almost the answer to your question, because if you have a chain, then you have many parts that can that have to, uh, but have to work mechanically and you want to expose as little mechanical parts moving parts as possible, which is why it's the same reason why we have a four wheel configuration. Um, basically. OK, makes sense. Thanks. Thank you. From please. Yes. Yes. There are some suggestions for payloads. So maybe what about a lightweight seismic detector to who study the interior. Many of the moon maybe. What kind of activity. Yeah actually that is a very awesome idea that I've been talking about with some guys from JPL. Some I think like two years ago, they've been talking. They came to us and we talked to. This idea, and they actually ask us, is something that we've never really followed up because they had too much to do on our and we. And because the initial request was if we can put some seismic detectors on the landing legs of Delenda. So that was the initial idea, but then they figured out actually it would make much more sense to have far across stretch data points. So in this case, I think maybe maybe somebody can actually propose to us because we have it on the radar and actually in the schedule, because maybe it makes sense to integrate if it's a small unit in every drop container. So you have a distributed data collection point, but it's a good idea. So this was what I was referring to with the bomb to come back to the topic, bec
ause if you are if you're detonating something, then it creates an effect on the on the surface. And if you have seismic measurement points, then you can draw conclusions from the, uh, from the underground. I was told by scientists that know something about it. Yeah. Actually, that is the reason why, for example, it was very interesting for NASA to actually be very sure when something that the stuff that was orbiting the moon falls down again because at some point it will fall down, it will crash in. If you have something orbiting and if the fuel runs out, then it's very important to understand when it hits some point to see the seismic effect of it on the sensors. And I think this I don't know the details, but I think that is one of the data sets that one does not the term, but it's not very good from the Apollo missions. It's not very they collected a lot of seismic data, but it's not really I don't know that they're not happy with it because they think that's an inconclusive or something got lost or that, you know, when you're just a human on the moon and you only have a limited time to work on the surface, then some experiments are just maybe not set up so well. So. Yes, thank you. Number two, please. Well, first of all, congratulations on winning the milestone prize and I would like to ask a couple of questions on your over how fast is your rover driving and what is the transformation of data from the rover? I mean, what bandwidth are you seeing and what is the maximum slope that you can climb with the rover? And how are you navigating it? OK, OK. Um, so we we did some testing at Teneriffe and the top speed that we got was like two kilometers per hour, which is not something that I recommend to drive on the moon. Um, because the problem is that that you actually have like one and a half seconds that it takes from the signal from Earth to arrive on the moon. And then you have another one and a half second that it takes until you see, um, the what you have done.
And so this may be, uh, this is why the reason why we're not driving like 50 kilometers per hour, but, uh, we are realistically more expecting to be slower. And we also tested various slopes that, uh, that we can climb up. And it absolutely depends on the terrain that we are, um, that we are driving on. Um, we we did some High-Resolution calculations with some high resolution analysis of the data that we have from the Apollo 17 landing site. And we determined that it's sufficient to climb up a slope of ten degree, um, because this is the maximum that we are that we can see from the data that we have from the landing site. And, uh, in our test, we we were able to drive up to 10 degrees. Yes. And the other one was navigating it. And what is the band? Um, I would ignore the navigation. Um, so the Bandera's we are planning to have is um. So in the 500 meters we will have a very high bandwidth. It's very easy to do. But as we are getting more outside, uh, for example, for reaching the five kilometers, um, we are planning to have at least two megabits per second, um, which is sufficient for some good quality, uh, video stream coming coming back from the rover and navigation. Well, there is no GPS there, unfortunately, but, um, this will be done by building a map from the uh, from the images. There's not much that you can do. One point navigation or. Oh no, it's a remote control. It's a it's a fancy remote controlled car. Was was an optional payload for autonomous navigation. So we are working, for example, was was a deal which have an autonomous mode and they would be interested in in having that on the rover. But it's an optional module funds for us. Uh, because if we can if we can autonomously, we can drive, um, much faster than if we are just remote control. Yeah. And to design, top speed is three point six kilometers. That is design one. And it's really hard to test it out on Earth because you have the difference in one sixth of gravity, you know, so we really can't e
asily it's the same thing for the slope. If you think we did an analysis for the slopes on the moon for 10 degrees and look at it, but you can't really say if it can climb by 10 degrees slope on Earth, it's the same as being climbing on the moon. That's a different thing. So one thing that we did is we went to a very special lunar lab at the DLR. It's I think it is called Planetary Exploration Laboratory, where they have some realistic volcanic sand, which simulates the characteristics, a bit of the lunar soul. And it really means that the rover, for example, can at a certain point itself into the ground or just to drift down from a slope site. That's also something to see if you're not just climbing a slope and just upwards, but also traveling at sidewards and see what happens if the rover just drifts down. And those results were conclusive. Yeah, actually, they were quite happy with the way that no situation where they got totally stuck and couldn't free itself or something like this. Have this the advantage of the four wheel configuration that we have because we can turn all the wheels independently. Um, this is this helps us to, um, just, uh, undo the fuckups that we did. So, um, also we have, uh, we have an active passive, um, suspension system. So, um, if one of the vehicles loses contact with the surface, we can we can lower it or higher it and, um, recreate full contact. So this also helps to undo the effect of passive suspension. So it already has some it has some strength in it. So it already does this on its own. But we can actually adjust this motors additionally. Thank you. Um, no, no. Four, please. But, uh, thanks for the great torque. Um. Two questions, Tushar questions. First one is which kind of propulsion are you want to use for for the lander landing module? Yes, yes, uh, sir, there is the right guy to ask an audience, uh, so but you can ask him this question after. But let's answer it later. Yeah, OK. Just understand, to answer the question in on
e way, definitive we're using towards a propulsion system are totally off the shelf components because something that we've agreed on earlier on, as much as we love rocket science, we think that doing all of this and then designing rocket motors, it's too much so we've done to find if we buy off the shelf. But you can have a discussion about it, but then again, I've been told from reliable sources that just one thing is ball tangs costs one million dollars. So how much? 5.1 million? No, that's that's too much. But the point is, if they paid if you have to pay this much, Dana, definitely scaring you that. Yeah, but it's much it's much less than this, but it's still way too expensive for any normal person. So I think that's the next big thing to tackle. And I can tell you that a whole lot of hacker spaces that I've got in touch with over the past year actually working on designing smaller propulsion systems for more like access to others, like control trusses and stuff like this, not the big ones, you know, and for the landing module, you need to really trust something that is very powerful to to decrease the speed, you know, that you have at the point when you're in low moon orbit. So and that's really something that's been done many times before. For example, for the ATV module that's approaching the ice, you know, that has the same requirements as our landing module. And you can simply buy these parts and they're not costing five million, not even total. But anyway, the mission is expensive. There is no way around that. You know what I was pointing for? Where do you get it from? What do you get? Actually, the money from when you just get it? Yeah, OK. And it's actually two simple answers from sponsors. So most of the initial money that we've had in years was from us themselves. And of course it is also the same still applies. And of course, then from people sponsoring us. So I don't know. Most of the time we're doing with companies like Symbiosis, it's always a giv
e and take. So it's not just that we go to a company like Wettenhall and say, hey, guys, we want to put your sticker on there, give us 100 million on stuff like this. It's it's something that I don't know if I ask you, you would say, yeah, what it been, I take it. But personally, for me, that's not the right way to go. You know, that's like marketing only that's the head of NASA actually said that he would be happy to have certainly a Mars mission funded by Coca-Cola. He just made it as an example. I don't think it's not a good thing. I think it's OK. It can work out from a marketing perspective. It's awesome. You know, it's like the Olympics or stuff like this. I think it's better if you have a corporation partner. That's what we have a at many like SLM Solutions to company with the Swedish printed plus, for example, they're giving us money and they're also giving us technology. So we're getting to parts and we're getting the right kind of funding to continue our work, which is awesome. It's a good combination. What they get back from it. It's the right kind of learning on how to build space parts, you know, because that's a different thing even for them, because I don't know, they're currently designing for, like the medical industry, parts of producing parts. And now they can actually produce parts that we test for space applications and it gives them the advantage. It's not just for them. It's also for companies like Invidia that we're working with. So these companies can actually step up and say, hey, guys, we have this technology that's normally forty, let's say standard open market, but has to group out and used our technology and put it to all the test to work on the moon. And it worked. So it's a very good statement for these guys as well. It's like technology marketing, if you want to say it. The reason for them to give us money, which I like. Thank you. Next question from Iasi, please. Yes, so what's about the dust on the lens of the rover? Do you have an
ything to wipe? That is the problem. Do I have anything to clean the lenses, maybe vibrations? Um, we as far so we looked at all the data that we have. So there's a lunar sourcebook because it was a very, very comprehensive book about everything that we know about, um, about the moon from all the missions that were sent to the moon. And as far as we can see is that at the height of the, um, of the lenses, we don't expect to be to have any significant amount of floating particles that could settle on the lenses. So we have, um, right now, we don't have any cleaning mechanisms on there and we don't plan to have them. Is there a problem which was mentioned could be electrostatic and a.. Yeah, this Elektra's the electrostatic mechanism. Electro static effect is the one that keeps the particles floating, but not an insignificant amount that we really have to take care of them. One thing that we did also as part of this year's testing was subsequent so-called lunar dust evaluations, because as I mentioned, we've tested in a planetary exploration lab which had soil similar to lunar dust. And it was really, really dusty. I think I saw it in the video and it was really everything was dusty. Even the lenses were covered with dust. But they still and that's the important thing. They still provided a good enough image quality, far exceeding what was required. So that that's OK. And that was after, like, I don't know, eight hours of testimony. Three days. Three full days. We did after three days. OK, thank you. Number six, please. Thank you for your time. I've got two questions. The first one is a technical one. Um, the solar cell is just turning on one axis. Did you consider trying to access or why do you consider just one axis? Mostly because of mechanical stability and reducing the number of movable parts. The problem is when you're launching, you have those you have the accelerations from the, um, from the launch and the build, something that is tilted along on two parts to
exercise, um, mechanically less stable than if you just have one axis. Um, the way we are driving on the moon is really we are adjusting it to the sun and then we are driving was it was just this is why we have the camera that can tilt in any direction. And because we have to build that can drive in any direction, we can drive like this. OK, thank you. The second one is what's Google's role in all this? We have to give out all your plans and schematics or something. Yeah, maybe I can answer this. So actually, you have to think about Google is just the so-called logo sponsor. So where does this idea of the GDP come from? It comes actually from the so-called Otik price. And what's the great thing about Otik? Nobody knows him. So who was Raymond hottie? Weyman Atik was a hotel millionaire. We actually started his life herding sheep. You know, this guy build up a hotel was one and one time, I think, in the in the forest or so. He was really famous for having his hotel. I can get this hotel, Lafayette in New York. And at one point there was a conference where people was debating at his hotel, but people were debating. It's totally impossible to ever cross the Atlantic Ocean with an airplane. And because it was hosted in his hotel, was attending this conference and he was like, is it really impossible? Can if it wasn't as I said, he was herding Cheves when you started his life and now he wasn't hotel millionaire. So he was really nobody for believing in the word impossible. So he said at that very day that he was awarding a very large amount of money back then to the first person to prove him wrong. That was your ticket price. And you don't know Waymond or you know him now. But who do we know? You know Charles Lindbergh. Charles Lindbergh. That's the guy who won the Artic place. And he's the one who really changed it to like the kind of aviation industry five years after Charles Lindbergh won the air, did it is Artic price. We had an aviation industry where you can actual
ly not just cross the Atlantic, but you can travel all around the world. And today you can travel to Majorca for less than forty bucks. So that's that's the point. That's what Google is doing, is giving the incentive. They're just giving the money. And the only thing that they want is that I mentioned this place. You know, there will be a plague with their name on it, but that's the only white that they have to have to wait for us to have their logo on this thing. But that's it. We don't have to give them our schematics, details. I don't know if they really want to kickstart the private new space industry, as it's called. That's their motivation. OK, thank you. Thank you. Number two, please. Hi. So thanks for the talk. I have a suggestion for the DVD specification. I don't think you need G.P.A. and everything. Explained on the little metal plate, I think you can just say this, this contains a binary spiral of information and the first 300 rounds are in Morse code or obscure UTF eight or whatever. And then you can and then you and then you can explain the rest of the DVD already. So, yeah, that makes total sense. But the point is, I don't know how to make the starting point. I don't know. It's really we definitely have to talk about this. And I'm really looking forward to that suggestion because maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't know how to describe to you how to read a DVD, even not after reading Wikipedia. I think in 50 years you can just read it with a microscope or something. And the point is, I don't know, it's a silly thing. But if you're talking about a future person for mankind, like in 50 years, then it might be make might be possible to explain to them to use a laser to weed out the thing. But if somebody is coming up and it has no idea what this thing is, I don't know if he's pointing a laser at it. And at different point of power level, you know, then there's a hole in there, just one more. And that's that's the point. And it's a total data loss. And I d
on't know how to figure stuff like this out, how to make sure use the laser, use it with this power level. And this actually means power level. You know, I don't know. It's complicated. Maybe they don't need a laser, just a 3D scanner or something. Yeah. Yeah, I. OK, thank you. A question of my, you know, to maybe small questions. First, you said you want to take a flat or the flat where you may want to take it. Which flag. More like in, let's say, an open flag, so it's not something like it can reflect that, something that we would never do. Also something that we could not do because it wouldn't be reflecting PBS, because PBS is not we're based in Germany, but we're really not a German team of rockets. And we have people from the Apollo program who actually worked on astronauts getting to the moon, part of our team from the U.S. We have people from Austria, of course, and we have people from France. So there's no single country flag that we could put. There would be more like in mankind flag, like the maybe the CCC logo, if it makes sense. Yes. And and another small question, would it be possible to carry liquids to the moon in the storage containers, so to liquids. That's that's a very special topic. I don't know. The only scenario that I could think of something that an idea that I read on the Internet is that people were thinking about actually bringing plants in a small unit to the moon and actually try to grow them there, you know, like a full package with a plan and some air and stuff like this and see how it goes on the moon. Actually, that's stuff that is really, really exciting for companies like Bayer. I know that they they are doing some bacteria experiments in space a whole lot. And that's where I could think about liquids on the moon. But as I mentioned earlier, with Coca-Cola, it's, I don't know, highly debatable if it makes sense to bring a bottle of Coca-Cola to the moon because it's polluting the surface if something goes wrong anyway. But if it p
asses into the boring answer is actually if it passes in the the array of tests, then it should be OK if it doesn't leave the containment, you know. But maybe what's the purpose then? Yeah, one last question, please. Yes, um, you know what? Science wasn't being done on the moon. What should be. What do you think that should be done about science on the moon? I can throw the question back to you. That's the question. If we're putting out there, what do you think needs to be done on the moon or what do you have in mind that you would like to do on the moon? Because there's there's a number of things that has been done on the moon, but it's really not that much. The thing is, there are there are so many things that are unknown about the lunar surface or the moon on itself that that there's there are so many experiments that you can do that that would be interesting that we really have to select from an array of of experiments, because all we have seen is a small area that is as big as what was it. I don't know if it was a dorm room. Yeah, something like this. It's really it's a really small area that we have explored on the moon compared to two other planets like Mars and which is fully inhabited by rovers. And one thing to add on this, even the smallest scientific experiment that you could think of could actually change the entire course of history and the cause of space exploration. That's really exciting. As I mentioned, the sweetly pointed at something that's really chilling for me to be able to produce parts on other planets solely consisting out of the material from this planet and just energy that's exciting. And other ideas like this out around. We want to I don't want you to step forward and think about it. Yeah. Thank you very much. It was a very impressive speech. I still have goosebumps all over. I hope you, too. And I really like the idea to have a C.C.C. flick on a moon. And we can really make some some changes, some history. So I would just give these gu
ys a huge amount of applause because it was very awesome.
