Hallo Du!
Bevor du loslegst den Talk zu transkribieren, sieh dir bitte noch einmal unseren Style Guide an: https://wiki.c3subtitles.de/de:styleguide. Solltest du Fragen haben, dann kannst du uns gerne direkt fragen oder unter https://webirc.hackint.org/#irc://hackint.org/#subtitles erreichen.
Bitte vergiss nicht deinen Fortschritt im Fortschrittsbalken auf der Seite des Talks einzutragen.
Vielen Dank für dein Engagement!

Hey you!
Prior to transcribing, please look at your style guide: https://wiki.c3subtitles.de/en:styleguide. If you have some questions you can either ask us personally or write us at https://webirc.hackint.org/#irc://hackint.org/#subtitles.
Please don't forget to mark your progress in the progress bar at the talk's website.
Thank you very much for your commitment!

================================================



 Welcome to the session and to this talk Hans Christoph Stena is going to give you a talk on Widnes off grid services for everyday people and will be in network related talk. And I'm very happy to welcome him on stage to give him a warm hand of applause. So I will be talking about our project which you just said about really our work over the last seven ish years about integrating online connectivity with the kind of nearby networking into the internet and making that something that you can use transparently. Well give a little bit of overviews some kind of randomly chosen or not so randomly chosen historical precedents that I think are informed this whole discussion. Talk about some of the work that a lot of the work that we've done and other examples that are presented on been presented at Congress in other places and also hopefully inspire everyone here who works on software of any kind maybe even hardware to also think about nearby and off line networks and how to integrate it into what you're making. So this work is kind of under the umbrella of the Guardian Project. We are a free software project focused on privacy in mobile. When we make that means when we do software development we started with the idea that we want to make apps where privacy comes first. We don't want to compromise at all on privacy as a whole process include. So that means you know we haven't become rich and famous because we've opted for grants rather than VC money and things like this one central idea for us is that they design they use the ability of software does not is not in conflict with privacy but really is actually an essential part of delivering software that is actually secure and private. If people don't understand what they're doing that and much more likely to make a mistake. And if you design things in a way that it's easy they after the user has to choose between the dangerous button and the safe button right next to each other and then that can cause a lot of problems. So
 central to our design process is really thinking about user experience. So this is you know instead of saying you know the user didn't understand that we need to write a manual better we need to teach them better we say no we need to make it so that the software matches the people's expectations. We need to present it in a way that the expectations are clear. And this means a lot of talking to people a lot of iterations and a lot of trial and error. So gardening project specific Gleave focuses the users we focus on are activists and citizen journalists and human rights defenders people anything from like election monitors center et cetera we are often called upon to help inform software thats using businesses or or business people to travel use to use our software and front line reporters and one but really so have a core mission that we really want to make privacy and these kinds of things something for everybody. And weve kind of found this niche where we can work in partnership with all sorts of organizations who who will give us money to focus on these people like human rights activists and that we develop free software and we tried to push it out there in ways that it can be reused both in terms of free software libraries so that you can incorporate that into your into your apps. But also in terms of design research design patterns and things like this. So these are just a bunch. Some of them not all but some of the partnerships. These are you know a lot of these organizations represent say the target user. And so whenever were designing software were always working in conjunction with directly with people who are have strong privacy concerns that were trying to address another you know accessibility. And we also always try to find you know there's already a free for starfruit project out there doing an essential part of what we're doing. We would much rather try to support other free software community than invented ourself. So this means we have to do a lot 
more talking as well. So that's part of coming to an event like this is to say OK you know where where are the parts that we all can work together and make something better. Yeah. So I should also mention that you know I kind of wear meant many hats in this is the I pay my bills usually through officialy Guardian Project. But the way we work is that we we often do a lot of the work just because we think it's important. I'm also a Debian developer. I'm also a core team of droid and other things like this. Things that don't necessarily pay the bills but because we have some funding here means we can also have time to focus on things that integrate into the whole thing and are also really important. So networks. So everyone's familiar with the Internet and the Internet is now on our phones in our pockets all the time. And I think more and more people are forgetting that there used to be lots of lots of all sorts of kinds of networks out there. And that I think. So I wanted to highlight a couple that were influential to me and also just to point out that you know there's things we can we can learn from them because some of these ideas people think well that's crazy to build a system like this that it's too hard. And you can look back and say well actually this was working pretty well not so long ago. Who here is Fido net. Some fight on his part. MYF Yes my real first exposure to anything like a network. What it is quite simply was back in the days when a connection to a network was a modem and dialing into something. There was a thing called the BBM that is basically a one stop. I mean it was one computer that lots of people could call into and you could exchange you know you could chat you could find files things like this. So a bunch of people figured out well you know if we want to exchange data to across the country that's a very expensive phone call. But I can call make a local call for free or cheaper and then that person that PBS can make another local call on th
at PBS can make another local call and it can and then we can have a global network that's actually affordable. And that's phyto and it spanned a large part of the world. I mean it went from us to Bulgaria. I think a little bit into South America and just you know organized by people who want it to be able to send little e-mails and things like this. Then for me one that's near and dear in my heart anyone ever. Beam beaming apps and Palm Pilots. So this is what I think is quite a. This is like it has the idea of offline nearby networks built in from the beginning anything in far as I remember it like you know if you had an app you could be going after someone else and be like hey yours is that you want this app. And you pointed devices and made a little noise. You could also beam contacts and things like this and it actually worked pretty well and it was just based on like the same little infrared sensors as a TV remote control. And and I think it worked because of the technology was there. But more importantly I think it's that they got it smooth enough and this kind of interaction we're already talking about like Oh give me your card or pull out your thing and pull out your Palm Pilot and point him at each other was already kind of plugging into an existing human behavior. So it wasn't telling people to do some totally new weird thing. One thing that's getting a lot of media attention right now is to get to Semenov and the weekly package in Cuba which is really pretty amazing network of couriers moving hard drives around Cuba. What it is it is someone either goes to a country that has high speed Internet or they have some source they get it on in Cuba so and for people who don't know most of Cuba doesn't really have Internet access and the Internet access that are available is extremely expensive. So people figured out this thing where they just buy a hard drive and they fill it up with books movies all sorts of things apps games and then someone brings it into Cu
ba. They have a whole network of a network of people who talk to each other meet up and they physically exchange these hard drives so someone says I got the new weekly packet you go. You have your bleep packet store. You know someone that gets who gets it from someone you go make your copy. Then people say OK I want to get apps they go to the packet store. They pay a little money you get some time on the hard drive copy what you need. And this covers Cuba quite well. And there is no actual there is no wireless networking. There's no there's no wired networking. It is people moving hard drives around and talking to each other and agreeing. And I mean so this has often been kind of derided as as sneaker net which is something near and dear to us and that is something as a last resort. But it turns out that sneaker net is still the fastest way to transmit data. So Amazon has a service where if you have a lot of data and you want to move to Amazon they drive a truck. They drive a truck to Europe to your data center and they plug it in and you load it up. And this is exabyte of data. And I mean I don't know all the exact details but something like an internet for one example case it would have taken 26 years to do it over the Internet and it took them six months with this thing. So it's just really a truck full of Wired hard drives and then I feel like this is more I feel like Mattias is fading a little bit. So this is something that was quite a bit of activity maybe 10 years ago of people building DIY networks that can build to figure out how to route data through them but I'm kind of on their own. And that's the core idea of a mesh network. And so this specific map is the wifi network in Catalonia. You can see like the that is Barcelona where the mouse pointer thing is. But so it covers quite a large area. I think it's 10000 nodes and it's provided a relatively high speed networks in a place where the local telecom companies haven't really been interested. For whatever
 reason in doing it and there there's it's there's actually a kind of it's kind of a hard thing so the you know this is built by and set up by Monic a whole lot of volunteers and that's takes a lot of people's time and technical ability. And what often happens in cases like this is that then they've done the hard work of actually proving that people want the internet and maybe even give some money to it to support it and then the companies often come in and be like Oh look that's a market waiting for us and then these things go away. There's another reason I just learned about it yesterday. The world the outcome but there's a telecom in eastern Nicaragua called Say cell a very similar idea a kind of DIY community based effort because the local telecoms were not interested in eastern Nicaragua at all. They set it up got it working and then the telecom saw oh wait people will actually pay for Teluk to come service there and then they of course then set up a giant block to towers and put out of business. And of course the Internet itself started as an online network that was 1970. That was the Internet that was all of it. And it was you know built node by node starting you know when they first turned it on. It was two or three computers talking to each other and bit by bit. It was built out into what we have now. And on top of that you know so that that was aU.S. Defense Department really funded effort. But then lots of things started to kind of bite it on top of that. So use net which is still alive and kicking today is a fascinating idea of how to move. So it's basically like forums and it's all organized by topics. And back when it was created the Internet was not really available and people wanted to say well we want to use this to these digital media. We don't have access to the Internet. How can we do this so similar to something like phyto net. This is computers calling each other sinking up data. And what you get basically is this. So someone like a university 
will have a complete copy of Usenet and then you can connect to them whichever is the closest to you and say well I'm only interested in this much of it and sync with them and then and then sinking includes you're putting your responses back in that university takes your response and then forwards to every other connection and it spans the world in these asynchronous kind of bit by bit connections going in every direction and a very a more recent one to me. It is such a clever hack both politically and technically it's called to share in its target it's basically about getting around internet blocking in Iran as anyone heard of. So it turns out that so that Iran often blocks aspect aspects of the Internet. Satellite TV is very popular in Iran. But the satellites are all operated by I believe UAE the United Arab Emirates and they don't. Those countries don't get along. So that is that they the people who put together recognize oh this is an opportunity for us because ultimately satellite video is just bits and it turns out it's a standard format it's MPEG format bits. So there's no one checking that your bits actually are nice pretty playable video. So it is a system where they have a cable channel on a satellite run by the way that's targeted in it's available in Iran on one on the main satellites that Iranians use to get television. And if you subscribe to it and you basically a lot of these little satellite boxes you can download to us thumb drive so you can just download streamed data to it and then they have a little app that extracts just like unzipping a file but it's taking data out of and before. So this to me the whole thing is I did it to such a crazy hack. But that works. I found it very inspirational. So. So then why do we now really want to think about incorporating offline in near by networks. You know there's all these things before. That was the only way or there was there was a direct need. And now it feels like well it's so easy for so much of the 
world to just get stuff on the Internet companies like like Google have really pushed this idea that they can provide always connected services and you know when they when you're always connected then they can run these huge servers and have these insane search indexes and all this stuff that you can't do and no one has been able to do in a decentralized way. So you know they are so invested in this model of always connected anyone that everywhere they're flying balloons. Facebook is well you know they have their idea of putting drones up to beam internet always connected the Internet around the world. To me this I am always been very fascinated in the history of computers and the Internet and it reminds me of a one I think often overlooked but very important story in the in the film and the roots of the Internet and computing. And that is a lot of this stuff that the Internet that was being built around when the Vietnam War was being fought. And while we usually think of like you know oh the Internet was a bunch of hippies making internet access or information available for free. That there was that that was happening at the same time the people who actually were funding this. The people in charge to the defense toU.S. defense department funding had a very different idea. Their idea was about well if we have a nucular war proof network that spans everything then we can have the most efficient centralized command control possible we can build the network where we have people taking care of everything and then it will be so efficient that the president can actually decide who which person to shoot will be able to flip on a monitor and the airplane will be flying in the air and the president gets to pull the trigger. This is this is this is really this is not a made up story. This is really part of what they were thinking about at one of the things that they did at in that time in about 1970 the largest computer in the world was in Thailand because they had built a ne
twork all up through Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia where the home team Interrail was. This is where the Vietnamese brought weapons from the north down to the south to fight. So they had this idea we'll just build a network over the whole thing we'll wire up sensors and video cameras and audio sensors and then we'll know where everything everything that's happening on this on this trail. And then when we want to you know blow up some truck or something. There you go. But the general can sit there and be like that one and perfect knowledge. And that and so huge amounts of money largest computer in the world. They built the system and it was reporting all these statistics about all the things that they have killed and blown up here they have a nice map of all the places that were targeted via this system. And then after a while someone all the numbers that they had of all the trucks and airplanes and everything and people they had killed with this and they realized that it was much larger than any of the estimates from the departments who just were trying to estimate the size of the military. And then after the war you can now see this in museums in Vietnam. The Vietnamese figured out oh here's a microphone and when it hears a truck someone shoots at it. So they just played recordings of trucks. So this was really they had centralized command control. They built this amazing infrastructure internet up on the whole you know in this rural thing in a war. And they were victims of their own information bubble. So more directly what why do we need online in nearby networks. Well what we have is is centralized varied and getting seems to me even more so in some places in many places the world is very fragile and pretty much any place in the world. It can be fragile in it's surprising times. I worked in lower Manhattan during September 11th. There was no Internet no phones no cell phones. For weeks there was no power. There were power lines this big in the street. So this can
 happen you know in the middle of New York City. In a lot of the world it is expensive. It's getting easier and easier to censor it. It is. Everyone knows it's being surveilled in so many ways. And and of course it's lots of people are trying to push it to not be and not be neutral like have to prefer certain services over others. So it's also not evenly distributed. So there's is a map of the world where based on percentages of people using the Internet very evenly distributed. And so part of why that is. Well it turns out that it's quite expensive in certain parts of the world and often in those parts of the world where people don't make a lot of money. So really I mean affordability is a huge block to getting on the Internet and a lot of places. I mean this is something that Facebook has figured out with their Internet order program. They've basically figured out that you know it's worth it to them to pay for the internet bills for people around the world to access Facebook. But then of course they don't pay for the Internet Internet bills as a whole just accessing Facebook. There's even another example of a project that we worked on. So in theU.S. there are large parts of theU.S. where people are that do not have coverage for example farms a lot of large farming areas. And so we worked with a Kurd representing farm workers in Georgia the we were helping them track the work that they did. They could get paid fairly. And for the most part they did not have access to the two mobile connections or the Internet. This is in Georgia not hardly the most remote remote parts of theU.S. There's also lots lots of places in the world. So here is an example of Syria where there's actually the Internet outs you know the connection to that world outside of Syria is pretty tenuous. There's Tartus basically has three connections. And then there's one in Aleppo and that's it. And in some countries they've designed deliberately like this. Libya after the fall of Gadhafi they were a
ble to kind of go in and look at how the talk was built it was built for to have one central building that could control every aspect of telephones and Internet. And another nice example were these in Hong Kong these protests that broke out and they were they occupy this causeway. So it's kind of a not a very unexpected thing to be have tens of thousands of people you know in a highway. And there was a lot of they were trying it was political demonstrations they were trying to get themselves heard and they had a lot of effort into trying to communicate and also keep abreast with what the police were doing. And there was quite a bit of attention about I forgot the name. There is there is a service of chat app that had a remote what. No. This one was specifically about having local connections fire chat. Yes. Thank you. Fight chat. And it got a lot of publicity here but that one was quite interesting because it actually it worked as a regular chat app. But if if you couldn't connect on the internet it would. You could also try via Bluetooth to send messages through the network. So it's a nice model of saying OK well internet if you have it and ad hoc mash if you don't so now I mean these are a lot of nice ideas and a hard to issues. How can we do this. That's part of the question that we've been working with them our most recent work has been related to a Mozilla competition around find networks and we started. We chose to focus on Latin America and to kind of broaden our horizons. And we started out we had we had done some work of the time we started out with some surveys so you get some ideas of what what were the issues like what were the concerns about people so these are the respondents from these countries that we talked to. Then we're just trying to get some general ideas about you know when you're using a phone. You know what. What are the problems that you have and the cost of data was number two and batteries number. Number one. So we had come at it with a p
erspective very much thinking that we had heard. We just learned a lot about our kind of how expensive it is to use phones and a lot of premises. And that was our focus then we were surprised to see oh actually yes that's a concern but battery time is the number one. So from from this also what you say are you know how much data to people use. So two gigabytes or less is about half the people that responded to. Not so much. And then how much they pay. So most of the people were paying more than 20 dollars a month which you know in the EU is not so much money in a lot of places. That's a lot of money. That's a substantial portion of their income so about 10 percent of a lot of people's income. So from this we said we did a lot of interviews and things like this and we also said we wanted to we find that having real stories is very informative to the process. But there's a lot of privacy concerns to that actually saying oh can we interview and spread your story about your concerns around the world. So what we did actually was based on our surveys and the interviews we put together fictional people and these are three of them and try to keep them close know close to what we were hearing. And these are these I think there's eight or 10 or so all available on the thinks Web site it's linked on the talk page and it just kind of tells a little bit their story there their phone their income and things like this what apps they use and what they do with the phone. And these were very very helpful in thinking about how to prioritize things better. We had to we put more effort into battery conserving then based on that we went back. We have the longest running piece of this work as an afterthought where we started in about 2012 with this what we then called swap apps swapping. And from there we've tried to think about. So it is an app store it's all about getting a blob of data from somewhere to your device you can use it whether it's an app a video Uber whatever. In Africa we 
really have this opportunity. Think about like well what are all the useful ways that we can move blobs of data from here to there. And how can we get them all into one user experience where you don't really have to be aware you don't have to say why I have to setup I have to know. Oh the internet's not working I have to set up the bluetooth connection in a special way so that I will be able to use it when it or mirroring or Beauvois. So it is. And this is really taking shape more and more. I mean on the left there you have some of the many ways that that data gets transmitted in the in the ecosystem. So of course you have you know me up top is after dot org. It is there by default. You open up the phone with internet devices search for an app install it. If all is the Internet's working fine it will just download it from there. In each in the after data or can declare well am also available here in this mear. You know if you cannot reach after I do it or you can drive the repo on this server. So that's available in there but the client knows to say Okay I can't connect to this one. It's been. So what's the next list and we'll try that and I'll keep on trying. And then users if you want a set you have your own server you want to set up you on the phone or do you you can set up your own mirror and add it anywhere and share it to anyone. And that same logic applies. You don't the user doesn't have to know that the main one failed or even there's no notification or anything it just keeps going until it can't find anything if it can't connect at all. Then you're notified. So that still is a centralized server that is dreaded org as a central community of people. Everything that Android makes is free software and we try to make it easy for people to use it. So for example there is a guardian project apropos a or repo. Anyway you can just kind of subscribe to it. You can send the link via e-mail. Click it and after it says Do you want to add this. And then that also can h
ave its own meres and you can have as many of these as you want each with their own Meirs each with their own setups. And then we have the nearby functionality. So every phone has radios that can talk to each other there's Wi-Fi radios there's Bluetooth radios and these are set up to exchange data so that ENFJ has the nearby tab to help you walk you through the process of making a connection so you can exchange apps. Any app or video or things like this that is installed on your phone you can make it available and connect to someone else's device. They see it in the regular app store experience click install. And also then there's the problem of what you need to do this procedure you need. After talking to Android. So if you want to send say I'm an app I want to send you I don't have left right. OK well I can just send you right straight. So that's a relatively straightforward thing that's the left of just saying OK well I'll send you after I'd Ferson the rest will be much easier to sync up. And then of course it needs to also play nicely with other app stores. So most the world of Android people are used to only having Google Play but large parts of the world many app stores is normal. China for example India other places. And for this to be a whole ecosystem they all have to play nice. So if you know if you're getting apps some play and then you also install Android then after that will do what it can do to work nicely you will you can of course then if you install an app from Google Play you can of course shared on using any of these things. And then we recently saw a nice kind of surprising example that someone came to our chat room and said oh by the way I've set up a store in Cuba. And so because we put the effort into the whole tools to make sure that it just if it can talk on a network it'll work regardless of whether it's the internet or not. This man in Cuba decided he was gonna open a mobile phone store. And he taught a good way to promote his mobile phon
e store would be to have a local Wi-Fi access point that you could connect and get free apps and so that he was on the edge of town. He said Well if you come here you can connect for free to my network. You'll get free apps and then oh if you need cable or LPK LPK they think he does. And then my store is right here. And so this is kind of interesting. This is an interesting model me. It's for the most part it's off line. It is one Wi-Fi access point with our drive plugged into it more or less and it works. And then every so often he gets things with the Internet. So it's kind of like once a week Internet connection along those lines there's these little things like all sorts of little boxes that have Wi-Fi in storage in them now. And this one is called library box software for it that makes that idea of this kind of occasionally sinking to the Internet. And having a local store. Very very simple and very cheap. Yes. So I also want to point out. Like we're not the only people doing this work. And and really what we hope to see is a lot more like a lot more people focusing on this kind of thing and doing it in a way where we can intern properly. So Bryars messaging app there's talk from last year here at Congress from Thorsten garota which has a very similar idea. It uses the Internet when it's available but it also can do local connections for sending messages. There are. We worked a lot with Tibetan activists in Dharamsala in northern India where a lot of Tibetans are based. They are quite remote didn't have networks. They've set up their own whole system of both a network and computer systems that cover their area then I mean what we're seeing now you know even the Silicon Valley doesn't have perfect connectivity so you can get online maps on things like Google Maps. And we're seeing you know Apple and Google now are also pushing this nearby idea I guess hitting the mainstream and specifically so you know they have huge engineering resources which is a wonderful th
ing to see that but they always come for in the case of Apple. They often you know make it work really nicely and then they stick in arbitrary restrictions like you know iTunes is not allowed to do nearby because they don't want you sharing music or. And and Google of course track ads and the tracking that's their business model. And from from Apple there's a very important lesson to always when you're designing systems think about spam and abuse. This is a this is apparently become a thing in New York where people are doing airdrop Apple airdrop. Is there a nearby service dick pics to anyone who's on the subway who happens to have left there. Air drop in I guess there's a kind of listen all mode. So you open your phone and it shows you the picture right there right. Less than ideal. And there's also two apps called Sherratt and Zakiya which have many millions of users which do this nearby sharing quite well but that's what they look like to me that doesn't look like they're really focused on the nearby so much. I mean when they started out it was very simple and it was all and it worked nicely. And then it's the same startups it's the same business model now. They're trying to track and monetize you with endless type things. So you know we need to do it another way. This is the if we really want to have something like oh that's neutral and nearby working off line that it's not going to it's not going to come from Apple and Google. And it's not going to come from the VC startup fund VC funded startup and for it to highlight really the way we're thinking about it what we want to put up first and foremost is is that ultimately we want people connecting to people and thinking about how people act rather than encouraging them to act in a way that's that works with your business model and also putting this into the design of how the protocols work. So this is some early thinking about Paarlberg and who's involved the researchers involved in the design of the Internet. So
 it's interesting 1962 he's thinking about centralized networks decentralized networks distributed networks. But these are all assumed that those points don't move but people move. And now that you know we all phones we have to consider that that movement is always going to be part of this. So that means at some points you will have a great connection to the internet so you can use it and maybe it's that centralized hub and spoke or there might be some more decentralized and other points. You know it maybe you just connected connectivity to one library box that has specific services that you may or may not need. There's a whole whole range of things that need to be considered to make this whole kind of fluid experience actually work to break it down. I mean we have these kind of concepts as our core first is what we call China and that's the idea that it has to be discoverable. If someone sticks a little Wi-Fi box there if your device doesn't know how to find it then it becomes you know it's quite a bit of work to actually use that thing and you need some thing to store data in order to have an effective model where you say you have to once a week Internet. You also need a way for people to send their stuff out to gather and check it out. And and so one thing I think is that the most from this most recent work that is the most generic in re sharable is to actually say OK what is the format of data for announcing yourself and a service you're offering. This is our first draft of such a thing. When China announced protocol and said this needs to announce it. You know I am available on this Wi-Fi node. So the SS IDBI society I am available at this address I am available at you know whether it's Bluetooth or not. And this is the kind of service I'm providing and it has to be in a standardized way so that it can happen automatically. You don't want to present a whole list of text. Well you know many many many things to the user that's not going to ever be useful. Then we
 also have this available library for Android called Ayanda which just tries to make these core pieces really easy to do in an app. So that's the discovery piece the sending files and the receiving files part. So then the question is you know how can you get started doing this in software that you're working on. And some of it is just a matter of trying as we've learned where you know most of the time you think well you know if I have a network connection even if it's just a local network with you know small nodes it should just work right. If I'm on a mesh at work I should just work. That's all the Internet. Well it turns out it's pretty normal to check for specific things that only exists on the Internet. And then that ends up being the only thing preventing your software from working in a nearby or off line way. So that's the first thing just like well set up a network of or get a library box one node. See if you can talk to it with your app. Does it work without a domain names of where used to you know CCC DDE as if you just have an IP address just a sequence of numbers. Will your app work. Because that actually the domain name makes it a lot harder to set up individual lightweight nodes. And then you know in the flow of using your app is there data that can that can be sent and cashed in a in a way that's not say leaking private information things like that and just starting to think about that is that is the first step of saying and with a lot of little tweaks a lot of software can work then on on nearby and offline networks without big fancy changes of thinking with Bluetooth and things like this. So to wrap it up I just want to say that really what we want to do. We know that this is possible. So we want to build this network in a way that reflects our values that have always turning us into a product and that and you know that means building a network that there is will do something useful if the big provider is not available. Making it easy that means buil
ding systems that you don't have to ask in advance to set them up just you know by the 30 euroT.P. link turn it on and it should work in some form you know. There's lots of things like official things like domain names which help but it shouldn't be essential. And then thinking about you know well how can we keep this affordable I mean affordable affordable accessible and without any kind of arbitrary things like well you can think anything you want. Just not iTunes songs. So affordability and you know it might feel like well you know it's less important here but the system is made up of affordable little bits. That gives you a lot more flexibility in how you actually build it. So it really applies kind of everywhere. And in closing just to leave a little something that inspires us these are these starlings in in England that every night gather and just fly around in these swarms of the self organizing swarms which are many different individuals some leading some following the leaders change. It's very highly recommend watching the videos are amazing of these of these birds and it's if we can make networks with that kind of fluidity of organization then that would be quite an amazing thing. Thank you thank you for your talk. And we have still some time for questions if you have to leave then do so quietly and we have two microphones one over and one in the middle. And of course the signal Angel who just line up and I will call you to ask you questions don't forget to be quiet while walking out maybe a little show of hands. If somebody wants to ask a question but cannot reach it because the people sitting in front of them like yeah they're OK just walk up to number two that's sitting there. And go ahead. Yes. You talked about that but the case that they have some kind of a network already as far as I understood and you told and they told us that from that that could provide us with come and take a look like the piece of cake there and its own business model there. Bu
t what are the limitations of the post. Because I think if the infrastructure is already dead should be cheaper to maintain than then to pay extra for that it could provide us. You talked about the Nicaragua case for example the buffalo nut case. Oh the Barcelona case. So. Well the problem is you know if you have a company if you have good competition and they can build the networks cheaper and maintain them and you do them in a way that's with net neutrality and things like this that's great. But I think part of the motivation and conduct Cataluña is that they don't have much network competition. And Nick Nicaragua Very much so. There's two. There's a Spanish company and a Mexican company and that's it. They're huge. And so that these companies don't are not responsive to what people want to do and often put arbitrary restrictions and things like that. Does that answer your question or. But I was kind of wondering why it's not competitive. I'd like to independently. Infrastructure is not competitive. I think in the case of Nicaragua the telecoms really they have lots of money. They really don't want anyone to have set a precedent of being effective competition and so they were like oh they're actually getting subscribers will crush them. I mean they're monopolies are huge huge block me. You know that's that's part of it. So I think it doesn't matter the cost really they don't want people getting the idea that they can start competition and yet. OK. Microphone number one. So you currently focus on mobile technology. Do you consider the desktop or laptop out of scope. Because it's irrelevant or just because you want to make it a feasible project. So for the general idea as a whole absolutely it's fully in scope and yet we want to see that. Me personally and the Guardian Project as a kind of organization we are developing work is on mobile and that's why this was such a mobile bit but we'd love to see desktop and things like this. Number two please. Thank you for talk
. I have actually two questions. One is as far as the student right now the Bluetooth is the way to go for is this centralized networks at least what people are doing right now. And what does the biggest thing that we have that people have accomplished until now like what is the biggest centralized in that Bluetooth base may be in this chat client or something. And a second question is you mentioned a lot of technical problems that happen and so how does the routing actually work with this Bluetooth stuff. Do you have them like jail based routing or do people everyone knows everyone. Yeah I think so yeah. Let me start with the simpler question so it's not just Bluetooth it will be Bluetooth so you can do Wi-Fi. If you have access point without the internet that works. There's also things like Wi-Fi Direct which seems to be can work nicely but not always. So really you have to kind of consider all of them as possible and not one because Bluetooth is often the easiest connect but really slow Wi-Fi is harder to connect that much faster than the largest I mean usenet is the largest it's like terabytes of data. Way I mentioned the forums copying around that is generally copied around on the on the Internet. That's the largest one that I can think of. And the last question was a routing so that I think for a lot of it really the this wouldn't really be on the kind of transport layer where you're thinking about routing. The the idea more is to say like well if you want to do ad hoc routing then you would build a mesh network mesh books are all about Matt adhuc routing fire chat does I believe they do some ad hoc routing you know very small scale in Bluetooth and some of that I think is freely available. I remember it. So really the idea is that so like in the case of after I don't think it's easiest is that you make there's a system where you have a concept of a repo which is a collection of apps et cetera et cetera files. And it has that kind of globally unique ID. It's t
he site of the key. So that means when the client encounters some files you can easily identify it as oh it belongs I know this is after I doubt it because it's the matching signing key and it can just say wherever it felt as long as it can talk to these files. I mean then it can exchange data. So there's no routing there. If it's on a mesh network and it gets an IP address on the Mac network and it gets the same files the index knows it's about in the app you have to think about OK how what are the things we need to discover what are the bits we need to move around and how can we do that in a way that's reusable. You know it's very easy to just connect to the Internet and say oh yeah use this domain name assume it's always there. And I think for that for effort is one example. I think Bryer is probably a very good example where they're integrating the Internet and Bluetooth and local Wi-Fi to do messaging. Okay. Just to check is there a question from the internet. No questions from the Internet. So then number two was that before one of the things that I noticed is what you're talking about EPS and droit and distributing apps and then connecting to local nodes. What about IP is that and some of the other distribution networks. Have you looked into those and you would talk in the beginning about like integrating the initiatives like Matrix and so on was on the slides and talked about that. And yet if for people who don't know interplanetary file system the idea of one file system that is accessible all over the world. I think he is a great example for this kind of thing. And we would love to integrate it. It's just it's only so many hours of the day in the day. QUESTION Really. We've been focusing so right now. I mean it's something I'd very happily. If someone knows IP fast and wants to try and integrate it into something I would happily work with them. My personal focus is on the lower hanging fruit I think or at least from my perspective based on what I know. And
 that's like some of the Meiring stuff some of the like the library box local Internet free box to Bluetooth. So that's based on my or the pool of skills and interests of the people who've done the work. That's part of what I've hopefully I'm trying to you know what I'm conveying here which is that this needs to decentralize and effort. There's so many ways and it's like OK how can we find more ways to tie all these things together and make it so that no messages can go from a Bluetooth mesh over IP or fast to then the centralized internet and back and work without people thinking about it. OK unfortunately our time is now up so fine. Because so few at the Congress if you have more questions later. And you place around yeah I guess so. Yeah that's a Walmer handoff applause for